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To: DiogenesLamp; x; rustbucket
DiogenesLamp: "The packet shipping system which was ran by New York, would move from port to port acquiring enough cargo which they would then deliver to an ocean crossing vessel."

No, the truth is, you don't know who owned those packets because there were hundreds of them, of all sizes & capacities, many locally manufactured to take smaller loads shorter distances, down river.
The idea that all or even most were owned or "ran" by "New York" is simply not supported by any objective evidence.

And if we were truly honest, we'd admit that "New York" could be anyone, including family members of wealthy Southern planters, sent there for schooling, stayed to "learn the business".
And we know that Southerners did own ocean-going ships because some were famously caught with cargos of slaves in the years just before the Civil war.

DiogenesLamp: "Through New Orleans mostly. New Orleans was the primary shipping hub for all cotton produced anywhere near the Mississippi river, which was a vast area."

It's true that New Orleans was the largest Southern port, by far. But it was far from the only one to ship cotton directly to European customers. Mobile & Galveston on the Gulf Coast, Savannah & Charleston could all ship directly, as the need arose.

558 posted on 08/04/2022 11:03:12 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: BroJoeK; DiogenesLamp; x
BJK: No, the truth is, you don't know who owned those packets because there were hundreds of them, of all sizes & capacities, many locally manufactured to take smaller loads shorter distances, down river.
The idea that all or even most were owned or "ran" by "New York" is simply not supported by any objective evidence.

From New York Daily Times, Dec 13, 1891 p. 17:

The accomodations [sic] for passengers on the old packet ships were much more confined, mainly owing to the smaller size of the vessels. These ships were the very best as to hull, spars and fittings. Most of them were built in New York by Webb, Smith & Dimon, Westervelt, and other builders on the East River. A few were the outcome of the best builders in the Eastern States.

In their day the sailing vessels were the pride of the New-Yorker and a credit to our merchant marine. They were all American. No foreign flag ever flew at the peak of a packet ship out of New-York that was worthy, and no foreign vessel ever competed successfully for the trade we had inaugurated and made successful. to-day we look in vain for an American vessel among the large fleet of fast European steamers.

BJK: And we know that Southerners did own ocean-going ships because some were famously caught with cargos of slaves in the years just before the Civil war.

Yes, some Southerners did purchase and run slave ships, but New York City was where most slave ships outfitted and set sail for Africa. From the New York Herald of May 22, 1860 [Link, third column]:

There are two parties, and two parties alone, responsible for the fact that the slave trade is more vigorously carried on at the moment than it has been for a long time – namely the British government and the merchants of our Northern cities. The government of England keeps up a show of preventing the running off of slaves from the African coast by maintaining a squadron there; but it happens, as we see, that they are of little of no service. The black republicans of our Northern States, while they are foremost in the agitation against the institution of slavery in the South, are the very men who, for the sake of profits accruing from the slave trade, which they hypocritically denounce, fit out these vessels, destined for the coast of Africa. It requires all the vigilance of government to prevent the sailing of slavers from our Northern ports and the landing of negroes on the coast of Cuba; yet it is remarkable that the very same parties who most loudly condemn the democratic administration as the friends of slavery are the most active instruments if fostering the importation of slaves – a forcible commentary upon the hypocrisy of abolition agitation, both at home and abroad.

From [The New York Based Slave Trade]:

One of history’s curious episodes was a rise in transatlantic slave trading based in the United States in 1850 that continued through 1863. ...

Harris tells how Portuguese and Brazilian slave traders relocated to New York City, establishing a new slave triangle: New York to Southwest Africa to Cuba). New York had everything they needed. The US’s biggest seaport, it was a city of immigrants, and the United States did not ban equipping ships as slaver. US flag ships could only be arrested carrying slaves. (Those of other nations could be seized for having slave decks and shackles.)

Harris tells a fascinating story. He shows how the trade grew, sheltered by US politics in the buildup to the Civil War, and funded by Free-State money. He traces the struggle, often underground, between the slavers and Great Britain. “The Last Slave Ships” is an interesting look at an odd corner of history.

574 posted on 08/04/2022 8:59:02 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: BroJoeK; DiogenesLamp; x
With respect to the history of slave trading, I should mention a book I recently purchased, "The War of Jenkins' Ear - The Forgotten Struggle for North and South America 1739-1742" by Robert Gaudi, Pegasus Books, New York London. Copyright 2021.

The first half of the book deals with the long history of the various European countries that were in charge of the African Slave Trade over the centuries. Countries would often pass the control of the slave trade to other European countries by treaty. It seemed like every country was in charge of the slave trade at one time or another.

My interest in the book was mainly Georgia history. One of my favorite places along the Georgia coast is the Fort Frederica National Monument on St Simons Island, near the present town of Brunswick, Georgia. Fort Frederica has some of the most beautiful moss-covered oak trees I've ever seen.

Fort Frederica was established by General Oglethorpe in 1736 to protect the new British colony of Georgia from the Spanish in Florida. He had earlier established the city of Savannah in Georgia further north up the coast in 1733.

The War of Jenkins Ear was named for a British ship captain who was captured by the Spanish. The Spanish cut the ship captain's ear off, hence the name of the short war that resulted from that incident.

Here is some information about the conflict between Britain and Spain and The War of Jenkins' Ear: Link

575 posted on 08/04/2022 10:34:23 PM PDT by rustbucket
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