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To: OIFVeteran; woodpusher
OIFVeteran quoting John Jay in Chisholm v. Georgia, 1793: "We the people of the United States, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
Here we see the people acting as sovereigns of the whole country, and, in the language of sovereignty, establishing a Constitution by which it was their will that the State governments should be bound, and to which the State Constitutions should be made to conform.
Every State Constitution is a compact made by and between the citizens of a State to govern themselves in a certain manner, and the Constitution of the United States is likewise a compact made by the people of the United States to govern themselves as to general objects in a certain manner...."

OIFVeteran quoting John Marshall in Cohen vs Virginia 1821: "The people made the constitution, and the people can unmake it.
It is the creature of their will, and lives only by their will.
But this supreme and irresistible power to make or to unmake, resides only in the whole body of the people; not in any sub-division of them.
The attempt of any of the parts to exercise it is usurpation, and ought to be repelled by those to whom the people have delegated their power of repelling it."

Thanks for two great quotes from Federalists John Jay and John Marshall.
Quotes like these help explain why some anti-Federalist Lost Causers consider Jay and Marshall to be words like, "nationalists", "monarchists", "oppressors", "tyrants", small-d "democrats", "crony capitalists", "liars" and whatever other nasty names might come to their minds.

305 posted on 03/22/2020 10:18:07 AM PDT by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK; OIFVeteran
OIFVeteran quoting John Jay in Chisholm v. Georgia, 1793: ...

Every State Constitution is a compact made by and between the citizens of a State to govern themselves in a certain manner, and the Constitution of the United States is likewise a compact made by the people of the United States to govern themselves as to general objects in a certain manner...."

Yowza! You just declared secession lawful.

In Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 419 (1793), at page 429 beings the Opinion of Judge IREDELL. At page 466 begins the Opinion of Justice CUSHING. At page 469 begins the opinion of Chief Justice Jay, At page 471 appears the quoted dictum of CJ Jay.

Jay’s dictum is not in an Opinion of the Court. The decision of the Court in Chisholm was reversed in 1798.

The legal wisdom announced in the opinion of Justice Iredell was adopted as the law of the land in 1798. At that time, the opinions of JAY, CJ, and Cushing, J were deprecated.

For students of history, on February 7, 1795, North Carolina became the 12th State to ratify the Eleventh Amendment. As there were 15 states at the time, that provided the requisite three-fourths of the member states for adoption. However, Liberals and Federalists being what Liberals and Federalists were and are, President John Adams did not announce that the requisite number states had ratified until January 8, 1798, nearly three years later. As the official certification of ratification did not occur until 1798, the adoption officially occurred in 1798 and not 1795.

For those students of history who use Justia as their source of Supreme Court opinions, it should be noted that all such opinions at Justia contain a disclaimer:

Disclaimer: Official Supreme Court case law is only found in the print version of the United States Reports. Justia case law is provided for general informational purposes only, and may not reflect current legal developments, verdicts or settlements. We make no warranties or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the information contained on this site or information linked to from this site. Please check official sources.

The Justia version contains three paragraphs from page 378, and one paragraph from page 382, and does not remain precisely faithful to the official text.

For those who use Findlaw as their source of Supreme Court opinions, they do not include a disclaimer, and tried to include the whole text, but committed a signification omission on page 379:

[, or retrospective regulation. No ex post facto law can be passed by Congress. Const. Art I § 9. No ex post facto]

For those students of history who use Wikipedia as their source of Supreme Court opinions, bless your heart.

Hollingsworth et al. versus Virginia, 3 U.S. Reports 378 (1798)

United States Supreme Court

Hollingsworth et al. versus Virginia (1798)

Argued: Decided: February 1, 1798

The decision of the Court, in the case of Chisholm, Ex'or. versus Georgia, (2 Dall. Rep. 419) produced a proposition in Congress, for amending the Constitution of the United States, according to the following terms:

"The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law and equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States, by citizens of another state, or by citizens or subjects of any foreign state."

The proposition being now adopted by the constitutional number of States, Lee Attorney-general, submitted this question to the Court—Whether the Amendment did, or did not, supersede all suits depending, as well as prevent the institution of new suits, against any one of the United States, by citizens of another State?

W. Tilghman and Rawle, argued in the negative, contending, that the jurisdiction of the Court was unimpaired, in relation to all suits instituted, previously to the adoption of the amendment. They promised, that it would be a great hardship, that persons legally suing, should be deprived of a right of action, or be condemned to the payment of costs, by an amendment of the Constitution ex post facto; 4 Bac. Abr. 636 7. pl. 5. And that the jurisdiction being before regularly established, the amendment notwithstanding the words “shall not be construed,” &c. must be considered, in fact, as introductory of a new system of judicial authority. There are, however, two objections to be

[3 U.S. 378, 379]

discussed: 1st. The amendment has not been proposed in the form prescribed by the Constitution, and, therefore, it is void. Upon an inspection of the original roll, it appears that the amendment was never submitted to the President for his approbation. The Constitution declares that “every order, resolution, or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, &c.” Art. I. § 7. Now, the Constitution, likewise declares, that the concurrence of both Houses shall be necessary to a proposition for amendments. Art. 5. And it is no answer to the objection, to observe, that as two thirds of both Houses are required to originate the proposition, it would be nugatory to return it with the President's negative, to be repassed by the same number; since the reasons assigned for his disapprobation might be so satisfactory as to reduce the majority below the constitutional proportion. The concurrence of the President is required in matters of infinitely less importance; and whether on subjects of ordinary legislation, or of constitutional amendments, the expression is the same, and equally applies to the act of both Houses of Congress.

2nd. The second objection arises from the terms of the amendment itself. The words “commenced or prosecuted,” are properly in the past time; but, it is clear, that they ought not to be so gramatically restricted; for, then, a citizen need only discontinue his present suit, and commence another, in order to give the court cognizance of the cause. To avoid this evident absurdity, the words must be construed to apply only to suits to be “commenced and prosecuted.” The spirit of the constitution is opposed to every thing in the nature of an ex post facto law, or retrospective regulation. No ex post facto law can be passed by Congress. Const. Art I § 9. No ex post facto law can be passed by the Legislature of any individual State. Ibid. § 10. It is true, that an amendment to the Constitution cannot be controuled by those provisions; and if the words were explicit and positive, to produce the retrospective effect contended for, they must prevail. But the words are doubtful; and, therefore, they ought to be so construed, as to conform to the general principle of the Constitution.* In

CHASE, Justice. The words “commenced and prosecuted,” standing alone, would embrace cases both past and future.

W. Tilghman. But if the court can construe them, so as to confine their operation to future cases, they will do it, in order to avoid the effect of an ex post facto law, which is evidently contrary to the spirit of the constitution.

[3 U.S. 378, 380]

4 Bac. Abr. 650. pl. 64. it is stated, that “a statute shall never have an equitable construction, in order to overthrow an estate;” but, if the opposite doctrine prevails, it is obvious that many vested rights will be affected, many estates will be overthrown. For instance; Georgia has made and unmade grants of land, and to compel a resort to her courts, is, in effect, overthrowing the estate of the grantees. So, in the same book (p. 652. pl. 91. 92.) it is said, that “a statute ought to be so construed, that no man, who is innocent, be punished or endamaged;” and “no statute shall be construed in such manner, as to be inconvenient or against reason:” whereas the proposed construction of the amendment would be highly injurious to innocent persons; and, driving them from the jurisdiction of this court saddled with costs, is against every principle of justice, reason, and convenience. Presuming, then, that there will be a disposition to support any rational exposition, which avoids such mischievous consequences, it is to be observed, that the words “commenced and prosecuted” are sinonimous. There was no necessity for using the word “commenced,” as it is implied and included in the word “prosecuted;” and admitting this glossary, the amendment will only affect the future jurisdiction of the court. It may be said, however, that the word “commenced” is used in relation to future suits, and that the word “prosecuted” is applied to suits previously instituted. But it will be sufficient to answer, in favor of the benign construction, for which the Plaintiffs contend, that the word “commencing” may, on this ground, be confined to actions originally instituted here, and the word “prosecuted” to suits brought hither by writ of error, or appeal. For, it is to be shewn, that a state may be sued originally, and yet not in the Supreme Court, though the Supreme Court will have an appellate jurisdiction; as where the laws of a state authorize such suits in her own courts, and there is drawn in question the validity of a treaty, or statute of, or authority exercised under, the United States, and the decision is against their validity. 1 Vol. p. 58. § 13. p. 63. s. 25. Upon the whole, the words of the amendment are ambiguous and obscure; but as they are susceptible of an interpretation, which will prevent the mischief of an ex post facto Constitution (worse than an ex post facto law, in as much as it is not so easily rescinded, or repealed) that interpretation ought to be preferred.

Lee, Attorney General. The case before the court, is that of a suit against a state, in which the Defendant has never entered an appearance: but the amendment is equally operative in all the cases against states, where there has been an appearance, or even where there have been a trial and judgment. An amendment

[3 U.S. 378, 381]

of the constitution, and the repeal of a law, are not, manifestly, on the same footing: Nor can an explanatory law be expounded by foreign matter. The amendment, in the present instance, is merely explanatory, in substance, as well as language. From the moment those who gave the power to sue a state, revoked and annulled it, the power ceased to be a part of the constitution; and if it does not exist there, it cannot in any degree be found, or exercised, else where. The policy and rules, which in relation to ordinary acts of legislation, declare that no ex post facto law shall be passed, do not apply to the formation, or amendment, of a constitution. The people limit and restrain the power of the legislature, acting under a delegated authority; but they impose no restraint on themselves. They could have said by an amendment to the constitution, that no judicial authority should be exercised, in any case, under the United States; and, if they had said so, could a court be held, or a judge proceed, on any judicial business, past or future, from the moment of adopting the amendment? On general ground, then, it was in the power of the people to annihilate the whole, and the question is, whether they have annihilated a part, of the judicial authority of the United States? Two objections are made: 1st, That the amendment has not been proposed in due form. But has not the same course been pursued relative to all the other amendments, that have been adopted?* And the case of amendments is evidently a substantive act, unconnected with the ordinary business of legislation, and not within the policy, or terms, of investing the President with a qualified negative on the acts and resolutions of Congress. 2nd, That the amendment itself only applies to future suits. But whatever force there may be in the rules for construing statutes, they cannot be applied to the present case. It was the policy of the people to cut off that branch of the judicial power, which had been supposed to authorize suits by individuals against states; and the words being so extended as to support that policy, will equally apply to the past and to the future. A law, however, cannot be denominated retrospective, or which merely changes the remedy, but does not affect the right: In all the states, in some form or other, a remedy is furnished for the fair claims of individuals against the respective governments. The amendment is paramount to all the laws of the union; and if any part of the judicial act is in opposition to it, that part must be expunged. There can be no amendment of the constitution, indeed, which may

Chase, Justice. There can, surely, be no necessity to answer that argument. The negative of the President applies only to the ordinary cases of legislation: He has nothing to do with the proposition, or adoption, of amendments to the Constitution.

[3 U.S. 378, 382]

not, in some respect, be called ex post facto; but the moment it is adopted, the power that it gives, or takes away, begins to operate, or ceases to exist.

The Court, on the day succeeding the argument, delivered an unanimous opinion, that the amendment being constitutionally adopted, there could not be exercised any jurisdiction, in any case, past or future, in which a state was sued by the citizens of another state, or by citizens, or subjects, of any foreign state.


313 posted on 03/26/2020 1:07:43 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: BroJoeK; OIFVeteran
OIFVeteran quoting John Marshall in Cohen vs Virginia 1821: "The people made the constitution, and the people can unmake it.

It is the creature of their will, and lives only by their will.

But this supreme and irresistible power to make or to unmake, resides only in the whole body of the people; not in any sub-division of them.

The attempt of any of the parts to exercise it is usurpation, and ought to be repelled by those to whom the people have delegated their power of repelling it."

Thanks for two great quotes from Federalists John Jay and John Marshall.

Quotes like these help explain why some anti-Federalist Lost Causers consider Jay and Marshall to be words like, "nationalists", "monarchists", "oppressors", "tyrants", small-d "democrats", "crony capitalists", "liars" and whatever other nasty names might come to their minds.

Can I play? As a student of history, you should enjoy this.

Everybody opposed to Consolidation.Washington, under “the unanimous order of the convention,” reported the new project to congress in a letter, dated September 17, 1787, which contains the following little phrase : “in all our deliberations on this subject, we kept steadily in our view . . . the consolidation of our union.” Literally this phrase does not speak of the states; but it is the union of them that is to be consolidated, that is to say, increased in utility, efficiency, and strength, made more solid and strong, and more likely to endure. And, as will now be shown from her debates, this precisely accords with what her statesmen said, in her ratifying convention, in defence of the proposed system. One quotation will suffice to present the charge as made in the convention. Hon. Mr. Dench thought “the words, ‘we, the people,’ in the first clause ordaining the constitution,” and the eighth section of the first article, “would produce a consolidation of the states, and the moment it begins, a dissolution of the state governments commences.” [II. Ell. Deb. 98, 99.]

General Brooks immediately replied that the idea that this constitution would produce “consolidation” of the states, or “dissolution” of their governments, was “ill-founded — or, rather, a loose idea. In the first place, the congress under this constitution cannot be organized without repeated acts of the legislatures of the several states; and, therefore, if the creating power is dissolved, the body to be created cannot exist. In the second place, it is impossible that the general government can exist, unless the governments of the several states are forever existing; as the qualifications of the electors of the federal representatives are to be the same as those of the electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislatures. The powers to be given to congress amount only to a consolidation of the strength of the union.” [II. Ell. Deb. 99.] This is the same idea that was expressed by the president of the Virginia convention, as the object of union, viz., “to bind in one ligament the strength of thirteen states.” And all the fathers constantly kept it in view, that the states were combining their strength for defence, as well as joining for convenience, economy, and efficiency in the general government of their citizens.

Colonel Varnum said the purpose of the constitution “was only a consolidation of strength;” and that the states were not to be consolidated by it, and, moreover, that the congress provided for had no right to affect them. “It is,” said he, “the interest of the whole to confederate against a foreign enemy.” [II. Ell. Deb. 78.]

Hon. James Bowdoin not only denied that there was danger of consolidation in the system, but he spoke of it as “a confederacy, which would give security and permanency to the several states;” that is to say, preserve them. [II. Ell. Deb. 129.] Judge Sumner argued that there was no danger that “the delegation of these great powers would destroy the state legislatures, . . . for the general government depended on them for its very existence.” [Ibid. 64.] Hon. Mr. Sedgwick said that “if he thought this constitution consolidated the union of the states, he should be the last man to vote for it.” [II. Ell. Deb. 77. See also Massachusetts Centinel, Feb. 2, 1788.]

In the small volume of “debates” of the ratifying convention, published by the state early in the present century, at page 316 is to be found the following account and extracts. Mr. Shurtleff, referring to General Washington’s letter above mentioned, objected that “the convention said they aimed at a consolidation of the union.” Mr. Parsons, afterwards the Chief Justice of Massachusetts, said there was “a distinction between a consolidation of the states, and a consolidation of the union.” Mr. Jones said that “the word ‘consolidation’ had different ideas.” “Different metals melted into one mass,” he said, illustrated one, and “several twigs tied into one bundle,” the other.

Hon. Mr. Dana, afterwards Chief Justice of Massachusetts, said, in the same debate, that “ if this government was a consolidation, instead of a confederation, he should think the number [of representatives] too small. But, as it is federal, and we have our own governments to support, the expense [of a larger number] would be too great.” [Memoirs of Chief Justice Parsons, p. 93.] George Cabot, writing to Judge Parsons, February 28,1788, said that one of the great fears of the people was, that the constitution makes “ such a consolidation of the states as will dissolve their governments,” but that the equal suffrage in the senate “is security that no measures will ever pass tending in the smallest degree to consolidation.” [See Memoirs of Judge Parsons; see also Amory’s Life of Governor Sullivan, p. 534.]

Fisher Ames, the great Massachusetts statesman and orator, said: “No argument against the new plan has made a deeper impression than this, that it will produce a consolidation of the states. This is an effect which all good men deprecate. The state governments are essential parts of the system. The senators represent the sovereignty of the states. They are in the quality of ambassadors of the states. . . . A consolidation of the states . . . would subvert the constitution. Too much provision cannot be made against consolidation. The state governments represent the wishes and feelings and local interests of the people.” He further said that they would “ afford shelter against the abuse of federal power,” and that “the system would be, in practice as in theory, a federal republic.” [II. Ell. Deb. 46.] Though other extracts could be produced, these will suffice. I have piled up this mass of proof to make Massachusetts refute her own sons; to expose their offence in suppressing or garbling her record to get excuses for violating her sacred faith; and to prevent further confidence in them as to these subjects. But this is not all: for the record further shows the direct opposite of consolidation, to have been the solemn understanding on which Massachusetts ratified. Let us see.

The Severalty and Sovereignty of the States. — Her wise men in the convention gave to her, many and most emphatic assurances on this point. I have just quoted Fisher Ames as saying, “the senators represent the sovereignty of the states.” [II. Ell. Deb. 46.] Judge Parsons said the senate was designed “to preserve the sovereignty of the states.” [See his “Memoirs” by his son, p. 98.] Christopher Gore, for many years one of her leading statesmen, said : “The senate represents the sovereignty of the states.” [II. Ell. Deb. 18.] Governor Bowdoin said the states are “ distinct sovereignties.” [II. Ell. Deb. 129.] George Cabot, afterwards one of her federal senators, said the “senate is a representation of the sovereignty of the individual states.” [II. Ell. Deb. 26.] Mr. Thacher said : “The senate are elected by the legislatures of the different states, and represent their sovereignty” [II. Ell. Deb. 145.] Samuel Adams said that, under the new constitution, “ each state retains her sovereignty.” [II. Ell. Deb. 131.] Other similar quotations might be given, but it is not necessary, as none of the fathers dissented, and as the then existing federal compact, and the constitution of Massachusetts, both contained assertions of absolute state sovereignty, which the fathers neither sought to nor could go behind.

“We, the people,” means Massachusetts. — The phrase, “the people,” was then used in a general sense, as it is now; for the people of all the states were alike in political condition, had common sentiments, and aimed at self-government, not only as societies, such as they then were, but as united societies, which they were then seeking to become. Their contemplated self-federalization was for convenience, economy, and united strength. “The people,” then, only existed, and had capacity for political action, as states; and, as these bodies were equal, they must have been respectively sovereign. Consistently with this idea, the organic laws of the states generally declared that “all power is inherent in the people,”— the state making the declaration referring to herself, of course, for she made it independently, and had no right or reason to make it for any other people. Wherefore, we shall find the phrase, when technically and constitutionally used, to mean the people of a state, or the people of the states, considered as sovereignties. The records of all the states show this, as will be seen. I now proceed to give the conclusive proof Massachusetts affords. Her own record shows her to be as autocratic as the Czar in decreeing her institutions, state and federal, as well as in her present political status. When her people, as a separately and thoroughly organized colony, assumed independence, and “by a social compact” to use their own words, formed themselves into a state, they solemnly preambled as follows: Thanking God for the opportunity of deliberately entering into “an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other,” and “forming a new constitution of civil government for themselves and posterity,” they declare that “We, the people of Massachusetts, ... do agree upon, ordain, and establish the following declaration of rights and frame of government as the constitution of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.” And it in no wise qualifies the sovereign character of the said “We, the people ” that they establish a federal government, for this must exist by their creation, hold their powers in trust, and hence remain subordinate to them. Indeed, the same fundamental law that I have just quoted from, declares that “the people of the commonwealth have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state,” and that they “forever hereafter shall exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not . . . by them expressly delegated to the united states in congress assembled.”


314 posted on 03/26/2020 1:12:22 PM PDT by woodpusher
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