Kalamata: BJK from post #439: "based on Confederate "Reasons for Secession" documents, the later revisionist claim is that secession was over something other than the threat to slavery represented by Lincoln's "Black Republicans"."
Kalamata: "Lincoln promised in his First Inaugural to protect slavery in the slave states, Joey.
Are you insinuating Lincoln was a liar?"
First, notice Kalamata's denial tactic here.
Rather than address the point he is clearly wrong about, he instead goes on the attack against Lincoln.
Second, Lincoln kept his promises regarding slavery in states loyal to the Union, even if as in Missouri & Kentucky, the Confederacy also claimed them.
Third, it's indisputable that the major focus of those first "Reasons for Secession" documents, documents written before Lincoln's inauguration, their focus was slavery, for the simple reason that no other grievance was powerful enough to convince a majority of Southern voters to support disunion.
Kalamata: "The most serious threats to secession in pre-Lincoln America, if I recall correctly, were the 1824 tariff by Henry "Slave-Master" Clay, and the 1814-1815 Hartford Convention of New England states that was precipitated by the War of 1812."
Well... there were many more threats of rebellion, insurrection, secession & treason, including:
- 1787 Shay's Rebellion in Massachusetts helped precipitate the Constitutional Convention of 1787.
The forces which defeated Shay's rebels were lead by Continental Army General Benjamin Lincoln.
Many rebels were tried & convicted, most pardoned, two hanged.
- 1792 Whiskey Rebellion in western Pennsylvania put down when President Washington raised an army to defeat it.
Those arrested & convicted were later pardoned by President Washington.
- 1798 Quasi-War against France, US fears of treason lead to Alien & Sedition Acts under President Adams, originally supported even by Thomas Jefferson, who later used them to imprison his political opponents.
- 1799 Fries Rebellion against Quasi-War taxes in Pennsylvania.
Rebels were arrested, tried & convicted of treason but pardoned by President Adams.
- 1805 former Jefferson Vice President, NY Aaron Burr's conspiracy to take over and secede Louisiana.
President Jefferson had Burr arrested and tried for treason.
- 1814 Hartford Convention, New Englanders unhappy with "Mr. Madison's War", the Louisiana Purchase and 1807 trade embargo met to discuss possible secession.
In response President Madison transferred Federal troops from the frontlines in the war with Canada to near the border of Massachusetts, in case of rebellion.
- 1828 "Tariff of Abominations" provoked Nullification Crisis and South Carolina to threaten secession.
President Andrew Jackson responded by ordering a war-fleet to Charleston Harbor and threatening:
"...please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.[65]"
South Carolinians backed down and Congress reduced the tariff a little.
- 1857 Mormon Rebellion in Utah, Democrat President Buchanan sent the US Army, Gen. Albert S. Johnson commanding, to suppress it.
In every case since 1788 Federal government acted under the Constitution to suppress threats of rebellion, insurrection, domestic violence, secession and/or treason.
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>>Joey from post #439: "based on Confederate "Reasons for Secession" documents, the later revisionist claim is that secession was over something other than the threat to slavery represented by Lincoln's "Black Republicans"."
>>Kalamata wrote: "Lincoln promised in his First Inaugural to protect slavery in the slave states, Joey. Are you insinuating Lincoln was a liar?"
>>Joey wrote: "First, notice Kalamata's denial tactic here. Rather than address the point he is clearly wrong about, he instead goes on the attack against Lincoln."
I have addressed spurious claims of the left-wing, big-government revisionists, many times, Joey.
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>>Joey wrote: "Second, Lincoln kept his promises regarding slavery in states loyal to the Union, even if as in Missouri & Kentucky, the Confederacy also claimed them."
You make a good point, Joey. Lincoln was unconcerned about slavery in the slave states, except later as an avenue of revenge against those who were disloyal – disloyal according to Lincoln's definition of disloyalty, which was refusal to submit to crony-capitalistic plunder.
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>>Joey wrote: "Third, it's indisputable that the major focus of those first "Reasons for Secession" documents, documents written before Lincoln's inauguration, their focus was slavery, for the simple reason that no other grievance was powerful enough to convince a majority of Southern voters to support disunion."
Possibly. But the reasons for the first secession, in a nutshell, were the tentacles of crony capitalism, only one of which threatened slavery; the most dangerous of which was the Morrill Tariff. The reason for the second secession was Lincoln's declaration of war to protect HIS tariff.
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>>Kalamata wrote: "The most serious threats to secession in pre-Lincoln America, if I recall correctly, were the 1824 tariff by Henry "Slave-Master" Clay, and the 1814-1815 Hartford Convention of New England states that was precipitated by the War of 1812."
>>Joey wrote: "Well... there were many more threats of rebellion, insurrection, secession & treason, including"
I was pointing to the most serious pre-Lincoln threats, Joey.
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>>Joey listed a serious of historical events.
Rebellion, Joey, which is localized, and which is not recognized by the state government, is not nullification nor secession. The threats of nullification and secession were powers retained by the states to serve as checks against tyrannical government, such as the tyranny of Lincoln, and that of his hero, Henry Clay.
The 1828 Tariff was merely an "enhancement" of Clay's 1824 British-mercantilistic-style tariff disguised as part of "The American System." The tyranny that created the 1824 tariff was the precipitator that raised alarm bells, as explained by Jefferson in 1825:
"I see, as you do, and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power. Take together the decisions of the federal court, the doctrines of the President, and the misconstructions of the constitutional compact acted on by the legislature of the federal branch, and it is but too evident, that the three ruling branches of that department are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic. Under the power to regulate commerce, they assume indefinitely that also over agriculture and manufactures, and call it regulation to take the earnings of one of these branches of industry, and that, too, the most depressed, and put them into the pockets of the other, the most flourishing of all. Under the authority to establish post roads, they claim that of cutting down mountains for the construction of roads, of digging canals, and aided by a little sophistry on the words ''general welfare," a right to do, not only the acts to effect that, which are specifically enumerated and permitted, but whatsoever they shall think, or pretend will be for the general welfare. And what is our resource for the preservation of the Constitution? Reason and argument? You might as well reason and argue with the marble columns encircling them. The representatives chosen by ourselves? They are joined in the combination, some from incorrect views of government, some from corrupt ones, sufficient voting together to outnumber the sound parts; and with majorities only of one, two, or three, bold enough to go forward in defiance." [To William B. Giles, Monticello, December 26, 1825, in Thomas Jefferson, "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Vol 16." Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1903, p.146]
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>>Joey wrote: "1828 "Tariff of Abominations" provoked Nullification Crisis and South Carolina to threaten secession. President Andrew Jackson responded by ordering a war-fleet to Charleston Harbor and threatening:"
>>Joey quoting: "...please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.[65]" >>Joey wrote: "South Carolinians backed down and Congress reduced the tariff a little."
According to this scholar, the Jackson administration backed down (that is, it compromised):
"Meanwhile, the House had been struggling with these issues too. The central figure was [John Quincy] Adams, elected to that body after leaving the presidency. It was his misfortune to be selected chairman of the Committee on Manufactures and to be the center of hopes for some amicable compromise. Such a role, of course, seemed out of character for Adams, better known for his rigidity; but his experience and influence were resources that he recruited in an interesting fashion. Soon after the session began in December, he and Clay attended a joint caucus of protectionist legislators to discuss what to do. As the former president sourly noted in his diary, Clay dominated the talk and assumed a "super-presidential" air, unwilling to accommodate other views. To save the American System, according to Adams, Clay vowed he would "defy the South, the President [Jackson,] and the devil.''
"Worried that contention over the tariff posed great danger to the Union and convinced that any alteration of the schedule had to have Democratic support, Adams decided to collaborate with the administration. So in conferences with Secretary of Treasury Louis McLane, he promised concessions by his committee to reduce rates, but to do it gradually so that there would be enough revenue for the president to achieve his goal of retiring the national debt within the year. National Republican candidate Clay naturally had no interest in that kind of pledge to benefit Jackson in the fall elections. Nevertheless, Adams tried to honor the agreement with McLane while maintaining as much protection in a new tariff as possible. He received a massive report from the secretary on the status of manufactures in late April, as well as a plan to cut the average rate from 45 to 27 percent. The House committee then adjusted some provisions upward, as Adams wished, and secured passage of a bill in that chamber."
[Maurice Baxter, "Henry Clay and the American System." University of Kentucky Press, 1995, pp.75-76]
Until recently gaining access to this book, I considered Henry Clay as somewhat of a statesman who helped worked out a compromise (with Calhoun) on the Tariff. But now I am leaning toward Clay being a bastard-child of the British mercantilists, with no fealty to the United States, or to its Constitution; with Lincoln being Clay's bastard-child.
Mr. Kalamata