DiogenesLamp:
"United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain." Remember, the point of this discussion is DiogenesLamp's hope to equate the terms "United States" and "United Kingdom" as being equivalent "Unions".
Then, having posited that the British Empire was really just a "Union", like the USA, he claims that secession from the American Union was just as legitimate as secession & rebellion against the British "Union".
Actually, he wishes us to believe that rebellion against the Brits was illegitimate, while secession from the United States was totally A-OK.
In other words: if it was OK for our Founders to "secede" from the British Union, then it must be much more OK for Confederates to secede from the American Union, right?
The problem is, those two histories are in no way legitimately comparable, unless we give Confederates the role of 1776 Brits!
For starters, in 1860 there was nothing remotely resembling the "long train of abuses and usurpations" listed by our 1776 Founders.
Further, the British Empire "Union" was established and maintained by military force -- nobody volunteered to join and nobody could leave except by rebellion.
The American Union was much different -- joined together by mutual consent, it could be dissolved by mutual consent.
Indeed, Civil War only came in 1861 because Confederates provoked, started, declared & waged it, primarily in Union states, for the first 12 months. ![]()
Actually, he wishes us to believe that rebellion against the Brits was illegitimate, while secession from the United States was totally A-OK. Don't misstate my position. It was contrary to British law, but completely consistent with our own foundation law.
The problem is, those two histories are in no way legitimately comparable, unless we give Confederates the role of 1776 Brits!
And this is where you go into loony land.
The Brits weren't trying to separate from the Colonies. They were trying to keep the colonies from separating from them.
For starters, in 1860 there was nothing remotely resembling the "long train of abuses and usurpations" listed by our 1776 Founders.
Actually, a couple of weeks or so ago I decided to take a closer look at them to see how many might relate to the Confederate's situation, and I was somewhat surprised to discover most of them were exactly the same thing Lincoln and the Union were doing to the Southern states.
Just last week, Mr. Kamalata pointed out exactly the same thing. So yeah, the Confederates had to endure an almost identical "long train of abuses and usurpations".
Ironically, the past "train of abuses" Thomas Jefferson cited in support of secession reads like a checklist of the tactics Lincoln and his successors used against the South to prevent secession:
"He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected.... He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone.... He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws, giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us. For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world. For imposing Taxes on us without consent. For depriving us in many cases, of the right of Trial by Jury. For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coast, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny."