DiogenesLamp: "I must have missed that.
Last I checked, someone raised a massive army and went down and killed other people who objected.
Perhaps you and I have different understanding of the word "debate." "
You did miss it.
In fact, there was an actual public debate which began roughly in November 1860 and lasted until about April 12, 1861.
Indeed, the debate was more-or-less settled in the Union with the ideas expressed by Democrat President Buchanan to the effect that it was unconstitutional & unlawful for states to unilaterally declare secession at pleasure, but there was nothing the Union should do to stop them.
That's where things stood when President Lincoln took office and that's where they remained until, until... until Confederates:
- Provoked war by seizing dozens of major Federal properties -- forts, ships, arsenals, mints, etc.
- Started war by assaulting and seizing Union troops in Union Fort Sumter.
- Formally declared war on the United States, May 6, 1861.
- Waged war in Union states & territories -- 30 of the first 52 larger battles in the Union, not Confederacy.
- Refused to stop fighting on any terms better than Unconditional Surrender.
All of which by now DiogenesLamp knows well, by heart, but absolutely refuses under any circumstances to recognize.
{sigh}
DiogenesLamp: "One cannot seriously believe the break from the thousand year old government of the United Kingdom was reasonable, but a break from a four score and seven year old coalition of states is not.
The idea is silly."
What's truly "silly" is DiogenesLamp's complete refusal to recognize the important distinction between the absolute necessity of independence in 1776 versus the total at pleasure declarations of secession beginning in late 1860.
DiogenesLamp: "Ah, but there was a consensus.
The Consensus of the Northern states was to let the "errant sisters" go in peace.
Lincoln deliberately tossed a monkey wrench into the peace by sending a war flee to force the Union member into the Mouth of Charleston Harbor."
A total lie because Lincoln's alleged "war fleet" (two ships on the morning of April 12, a transport and a smasll revenue cutter), was simply Jefferson Davis' excuse to do what he had already ordered done anyway: seize Forts Sumter & Pickens by military force, if necessary.
- "It is scarcely to be doubted that for political reasons the U.S. govt. will avoid making an attack so long as the hope of retaining the border states remains.
- There would be to us an advantage in so placing them that an attack by them would be a necessity, but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison that advantage is overbalanced by other considerations.
- "The case of Pensacola then is reduced [to] the more palpable elements of a military problem and your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens and the defence of the harbor.
- You will soon have I hope a force sufficient to occupy all the points necessary for that end.
- As many additional troops as may be required can be promptly furnished."
[Jefferson Davis to Braxton Bragg, 3 Apr 1861]"