Posted on 05/04/2018 6:42:25 AM PDT by Bull Snipe
Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.
That is really a very tortured comment. You are spinning like a prima donna now. I suggest you back up and put more practice into “stop-drop-and roll”.
Also on the 3rd of June. General Meade orders 3 corps of his Army of the Potomac to attack General Lee’s forces near the cross roads named Cold Harbor. The assault is a failure and the Union forces suffer heavy casualties without dislodging the Confederate forces.
Among other things, you are glossing over the fact that Sumter, for all intent and purposes, was under siege. Anderson’s men where previously in the habit of procuring rations at the local grocery in downtown Charleston. They got shut-off. Lincoln first learned that Sumter was about to run out of food on his first day in office. Meanwhile, Beauregard had been slowly but surely, week after week, surrounding the Fort with artillery, cannons, mortars, mortars on barges and enough assorted fire-power to blow the Fort to smithereens. So, your oft mentioned, personal interpretation of the situation (that somehow something fictitious would be trapped between the Great Northern Armada and the Fort) is nothing short of preposterous.
They weren't supposed to be there at all. Had they been honest about their intentions, the Confederates would have seized Sumter first, and they would have had no other choice but to leave Fort Moultrie and surrounding environs.
They deliberately misled the Confederates into believing that the properties were to be turned over to them, thereby respecting their independence, but what Anderson did instead was seen as a bait and switch con.
After that they were unwanted guests who refused to leave.
Meanwhile, Beauregard had been slowly but surely, week after week, surrounding the Fort with artillery, cannons, mortars, mortars on barges and enough assorted fire-power to blow the Fort to smithereens.
Because a strongly worded letter just wasn't getting the point across. Of course he was bringing up artillery. How else did you expect them to put pressure on Anderson to leave?
So, your oft mentioned, personal interpretation of the situation (that somehow something fictitious would be trapped between the Great Northern Armada and the Fort) is nothing short of preposterous.
Beauregard only assaulted Sumter with a portion of his forces. He had held a large part in ready reserve to deal with the warships when they attacked. It was in fact the arrival of the warships that convinced him there was no more time for talk.
Whether the Warships presented that much of a threat is irrelevant to military planning. The enemy does not tell you how many forces it brought, and if you rely only on reports, you may get a nasty surprise. If the entire Union fleet had shown up, it would have been very bloody for both the defenders and the attacking ships, and Beauregard didn't know how much to trust what information he had at that time.
What he did know was that it was militarily stupid to allow a two front bombardment of his positions.
“They (who ever that was) deliberately misled the Confederates into believing that the properties were to be turned over to them, thereby respecting their independence, but what Anderson did instead was seen as a bait and switch con.
Anderson had no orders from his military superiors to abandon Federal property to the Confederates. The military on scene commander (Anderson) abandon Moultrie because he could not defend it with 110 men.
“Beauregard only assaulted Sumter with a portion of his forces. He had held a large part in ready reserve to deal with the warships when they attacked.”
Every gun that Beauregard possessed was pointed toward Sumter. The 6000 infantry that he had under his command would have been useless against ships steaming a couple of miles off shore.
“It was in fact the arrival of the warships that convinced him there was no more time for talk”
Nonsense. He had orders from Davis to reduce Sumter by all means at his disposal before the resupply force arrived.
He sent his last agents to the fort at 1 am in the morning to issue the final surrender ultimatum. That was refused.
He opened fire 4 hours later.
Beauregard open fire with total disregard for what ever naval force was to appear. Every gun at Moultrie, Morris and Sullivan’s Island was aimed at Sumter. Not a single gun that Beauregard had under his command was in any position to fire in “Lincoln’s attack armada” should it arrive. That was because he knew that 4 warships had little ability to change the situation at Charleston Harbor, once he obeyed Davis’s orders to fire on Fort Sumter.
Secretary of War, among others.
Also the "National Republican" newspaper, which was the Party Organ of Lincoln at the time.
Anderson had no orders from his military superiors to abandon Federal property to the Confederates.
Indeed, he had an order from Buchanan to hold these properties.
The military on scene commander (Anderson) abandon Moultrie because he could not defend it with 110 men.
He couldn't hold any of it. If he had 10,000 men he couldn't have held it. It was asinine to even attempt it.
Every gun that Beauregard possessed was pointed toward Sumter.
This is incorrect. I've read Beauregard's after action statements in which he said he deliberately held a large part of his artillery in reserve to be used upon the Warships should they attack. I might be able to find them again with a bunch of searching, but i'm not going to do it now. I'm just telling you they are out there.
Nonsense. He had orders from Davis to reduce Sumter by all means at his disposal before the resupply force arrived.
A resupply force is a contradiction. It was a "force" of eight armed ships with cannons and riflemen, and it had orders to FORCE it's way into Sumter, and to there install a larger force of men to resist further.
It was D@Mn stupid, and it was impossible for it to accomplish it's stated mission. Abner Doubleday said every ship would have been sunk. In fact, it is quite clear that Lincoln very much knew it could not possibly accomplish it's mission, (Anderson had sent maps of the Confederate strengths and armaments) and so the sending of it's command ship (Powhatan) to Florida under a British flag, was clearly a deliberate effort to insure that the Ships did not actually engage.
Let me rephrase that. It was D@mn stupid if the ships were really expected to do what they had been ordered to do. If they were intended to just sit in the water off the coast long enough to provoke the Confederates into attacking the fort, then it wasn't stupid at all. It was diabolically clever.
So which is it, Stupid or Clever? Don't say it was a "mistake." It wasn't. There is too much specificity to it to be a mistake. One does not make secret orders giving a Lieutenant command of a Naval Warship while relieving a well respected Captain.
Beauregard open fire with total disregard for what ever naval force was to appear.
So you are going to stick with this? Well I guess i'll have to go look for those reports I read. Maybe I can remember where I saw them.
But here's a question. Would it change your opinion about anything if you found out Beauregard actually did reserve batteries for the Warship attack which didn't come?
I doubt it. You've been immersed too long in what people have been telling you all these years.
You are such a person that you would chop up the quote of a statement I made and present it as having been delivered by me as such? That is rather pathetic. But it does explain everything about you. If you must quote me DO NOT leave out complete sentences. No need to reply.
Show me in Mercers orders or Foxes orders where it says that they are to FORCE Their way into Fort Sumter. They are authorized to use force only if the resupply effort is resisted. That is what is written into their orders. Unlike your orders to Beauregard, I can provide those orders if you desire.
“There is too much specificity to it to be a mistake. One does not make secret orders giving a Lieutenant command of a Naval Warship while relieving a well respected Captain:
What the hell are you talking about?
By all means go back and look up where Beauregard set aside a large portion of his artillery just in case it was needed to fight off the ships. Until you do, it just your theory.
and I would not change my opinions based on your recollections of thing you thought may have read some time ago.
Don't look in the seven articles. Go directly to where the amendments are listed.
The 9th and 10th amendments are right after amendment 8.
“So, do you now agree Davis ordered Civil War to begin at Fort Sumter?”
Reminds me of the homeowner who found the former owner of the property despoiling the place.
The homeowner asked the despoiler to leave. Instead, the despoiler pointed a weapon at the new owner in a threatening manner.
The new owner fired first resulting in the expulsion of the despoiler. Turns out no one was injured during the ruckus.
The whole thing was controversial. Progressives argued the person firing first is always wrong, no matter what.
Most reasonable people believe the new property owner was in the right because he first sought a peaceful end to the intrusion and when that failed, used reasonable and proportional force to defend his family.
DL They weren't supposed to be there at all. Had they been honest about their intentions, the Confederates would have seized Sumter first, and they would have had no other choice but to leave Fort Moultrie and surrounding environs.
Pure fiction. The fact is, Anderson displayed uncommon initiative when, after noticing an uptick in the patrols by the Confederates between Moultrie and Sumter, moved out of Moultrie (after spiking the cannons) and into the unoccupied Sumter, in the cold and darkness of Christmas Eve. He just beat them to it. Is it possible the Rebs didn’t have the nerve to occupy an empty Federal Fort?
DL: They deliberately misled the Confederates into believing that the properties were to be turned over to them, thereby respecting their independence, but what Anderson did instead was seen as a bait and switch con.
Seen by who (besides yourself)? You are screwing up the timeline. The “misleading” (by Seward and Seward only) would come later.
DL: After that they were unwanted guests who refused to leave.
They were being starved-out. They plainly stated that they would walk out of the Fort on the day they ran out of food.
HD: Meanwhile, Beauregard had been slowly but surely, week after week, surrounding the Fort with artillery, cannons, mortars, mortars on barges and enough assorted fire-power to blow the Fort to smithereens.
DL: Because a strongly worded letter just wasn't getting the point across. Of course he was bringing up artillery. How else did you expect them to put pressure on Anderson to leave?
Umm......how about by completely cutting them off from provisions? Anderson told Beauregard’s emissary that he only had enough food to last a day or two.
HD: So, your oft mentioned, personal interpretation of the situation (that somehow something fictitious would be trapped between the Great Northern Armada and the Fort) is nothing short of preposterous.
DL: Beauregard only assaulted Sumter with a portion of his forces. He had held a large part in ready reserve to deal with the warships when they attacked. It was in fact the arrival of the warships that convinced him there was no more time for talk.
On the contrary, it was Jeff Davis’ order that convinced him. Fact.
DL: Whether the Warships presented that much of a threat is irrelevant to military planning. The enemy does not tell you how many forces it brought, and if you rely only on reports, you may get a nasty surprise. If the entire Union fleet had shown up, it would have been very bloody for both the defenders and the attacking ships, and Beauregard didn't know how much to trust what information he had at that time.
There are a lot of “ifs” in your fictional account. It wasn’t any military decision by Beauregard at all. He was a pawn. It was a political decision by Jeff Davis. Jeff couldn’t afford to let the siege end without action. He couldn’t wait another day and let Anderson just stroll out under a white flag! Jeff had States to win over! He ordered Beauregard (through an emissary) to ATTACK!
DL: What he did know was that it was militarily stupid to allow a two front bombardment of his positions
What he knew or didn’t know didn’t amount to squat. The decisions were made in Montgomery by Jeff and his bankers/backers and their own self-interest. Have you ever wondered who pulled Jeff’s strings? No, I didn’t think so.
Spin, spin, spin, ballerina.
Yes, BroJoeK, he did admit to that. He went so far as to say that Davis had full justification for attacking Sumter (the Foreign Garrison). I believe one exact quote was, “The Confederacy viewed the presence of U.S. troops in the South after legal secession as the presence of a foreign garrison.” Full attribution to J. Effersondem.
I’m off to bed. Hopefully, when I wake up tomorrow this thread will have cracked 1,000 posts and my work here will be done.
"STEAMER BALTIC,
New York, April 19, 1861.SIR: I sailed from New York in this vessel Tuesday morning, the 10th instant, having dispatched one steam-tug, the Uncle Ben, the evening previous to rendezvous off Charleston. The Yankee, another chartered tug, followed us to the Hook, and I left instructions to send on the Freeborn.
We arrived off Charleston the 12th instant, at 3 a.m., and found only the Harriet Lane. Weather during the whole time a gale. At 7. a.m. the Pawnee arrived, and, according to his orders, Captain Rowan anchored twelve miles east of the light, to await the arrival of the Powhatan. I stood in with the Baltic to execute my orders by offering, in the first place, to carry provisions to Fort Sumter. Nearing the bar it was observed that war had commenced, and, therefore, the peaceful offer of provisions was void.
The Pawnee and Lane immediately anchored close to the bar, notwithstanding the heavy sea, and though neither tugs or Powhatan or Pocahontas had arrived,absence of the Powhatan’s gunboats crippled the night movement. All night and the morning of the 13th instant it blew strong, with a heavy sea. The Baltic stood off and on, looking for the Powhatan, and in running in during the thick weather struck on Rattlesnake Shoal, but soon got off. The heavy sea, and not having the sailors (three hundred) asked for, rendered any attempt from the Baltic absurd. I only felt anxious to get in a few days’ provisions to last the fort until the Powhatan’s arrival. The Pawnee and Lane were both short of men, and were only intended to afford a base of operations whilst the tugs and three hundred sailors fought their way in.
However, the Powhatan and tugs not coming, Captain Rowan seized an ice schooner and offered her to me, which I accepted, and Lieutenant Hudson, of the Army, several Navy officers, and plenty of volunteers agreed to man the vessel, and go in with me the night of the 13th. The events of that day, so glorious to Major Anderson and his command are known to you. As I anticipated, the guns from Sumter dispersed their naval preparations excepting small guard-boats, so that with the Powhatan a re-enforcement would have been easy. The Government did not anticipate that the fort was so badly constructed as the event has shown.
I learned on the 13th instant that the Powhatan was withdrawn from duty off Charleston on the 7th instant, yet I was permitted to sail on the 9th, the Pawnee on the 9th, and the Pocahontas on the 10th, without intimation that the main portion–the fighting portion–of our expedition was taken away. In justice to itself as well as an acknowledgment of my earnest efforts, I trust the Government has sufficient reasons for putting me in the position they have placed me.
I have the honor to be, your obedient servant,
G. V. FOX.
I told you that the Powhatan was the command ship, the essential ship that without it nothing would be attempted. G.V. Fox confirms what I told you.
You mean I spanked you and you didn’t like it? I’m not surprised. Most people don’t like being spanked.
That is old and tedious. Examine the message from G.V. Fox I just previously posted. Whatever you think, he clearly understands that his orders include the use of force. He kept lamenting the fact that the Powhatan and it's guns were not available to enable the mission.
What the hell are you talking about?
I've been over this many times, but in case you missed it the first half dozen times I covered it, i'll mention it again.
Lincoln gave David Porter (a Lieutenant, which in the ranking system of that era was two ranks below ship's captain) secret orders to take command of the Powhatan. The orders also included the requirement that he make no one in the Navy department aware of what he was doing. Lincoln also wrote secret orders for Captain Mercer (captain of the Powhatan) relieving him of command, and turning control of the ship over to Lieutenant Porter.
When Naval officials attempted to stop Porter, he ignored them and ignored a direct order (telegramed) from the Secretary of the Navy to turn the ship back over to Mercer.
Are you remembering any of this?
Porter than sailed the ship deep into the Atlantic, well away from land or where it might likely be sighted by other ships. Porter ordered the ship to be disguised and he claims it was disguised so effectively, not even the people who knew it very well could tell that it was the Powhatan. Porter than hoists a British Flag, and sails it to Pensacola.
Every bit of this looks like a deliberate attempt to misdirect people regarding the whereabouts of the Powhatan, which was being waited upon by the ships comprising the rest of the Sumter mission.
and I would not change my opinions based on your recollections of thing you thought may have read some time ago.
I do not expect you to do so. But then I very much doubt you will change your opinion if I can put the black and white documents in front of you. You are emotionally attached to what you wish to believe, and you don't want to change your opinion even if it is proven to be incorrect.
Already posted quite enough proof that it is not. You don't want it to be true, but it is true non the less. Union officials continuously misled the confederates that they were going to evacuate the fort.
H3ll, they printed it in the Washington DC newspaper! How much more proof do you need that they had deliberately lied about what they were going to do?
I'm not going to fool with the rest of your message. If someone won't acknowledge demonstrable facts, it is pointless to argue with them.
Your personal fetishes are your problem, Fruitcake.
Didn’t notice. Must not have worked.
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