On this day in 1864

[Bull Snipe]

Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.

[DiogenesLamp]

Did you know Ft. Sumter was just as bad as Pearl harbor?

So i've been told anyway.

[DiogenesLamp]

Pragmatism makes a lot more sense when 750,000 people died forcing it on you.

Not so much when you have a choice.

[jeffersondem]

“Tis the patience of a saint ye have to be still arguing with the likes of him.”

I propose to fight it out along this line if it takes all summer.

[DiogenesLamp]

Another thing, no matter what Abe felt about blacks as a race, he found “slavery” abhorrent.

Especially when he was in front of Northern Liberal wacko groups which made up an important part of his base. Modern Liberals have to bow to all sorts of wacko groups not unsimilar to the Abolitionists of that era. Of course this still doesn't dovetail very well with his urging of the passage of the Corwin Amendment.

I guess he found some things (like losing Southern money) more abhorrent than others.

[HandyDandy]

Aren’t you the cat who stated that the Corwin Ammendment would “make Slavery express and irrevocable”? Or was that your mini-me? It was one of you two.

[DiogenesLamp]

I think it matters less who said it than whether it is true or not. Slavery in the USA at that time was already irrevocable. It simply could not be eliminated through any lawful means prior to 1896. (At which time it would have become theoretically possible to abolish it.)

The Corwin Amendment didn't really add much that wasn't already law.

[HandyDandy]

You love to say, it was mandated by the Fugitive Slave Clause, that Slavery was built into the Country. You need to rethink that. Until you understand the Fugitive Slave Clause, you have no chance of understanding the proposed Corwin Amendment (not to mention why Lincoln supported it). You have heard it from me before, Lincoln stated in his first Innaugural Address that he had no problem with the ammendment being made express and irrevocable. He did not say state that he had no problem with Slavery being made express and irrevocable. Explain that to your skating partner. Please try a little harder to make the critical distinction. In the simplest of terms, the Corwin Ammendment would have made it a law that the central government had no power to interfere with Slavery in the individual States. In other words, just because I love you, Slavery would thenceforth be a States Rights issue.
ps your skate lace is coming loose and you are on thin ice

[HandyDandy]

At least your buddy put his statement in quotes. Don’t you think that is the least you could? .......and then perhaps attribute it to U.S. Grant? Are you perhaps a Union sympathizer? (No need to reply)

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "I’m not sure if this is an admission you are posting something wrong, or a defense."

Well, think of it this way, do you enjoy seeing fake pictures of "gay Lincoln"?
If so, then you should also enjoy seeing real cartoons of modern gender-transitioned Democrat Davis, right?

Oh, what's that, you do object to "gay Lincoln"?
And you have posted those objections when & where?

The serious fact is that "devil-Lincoln" or "Big Ape Lincoln" are a significant element of Lost Cause mythology, something jeffersondem enjoys perpetrating in the form of "racist Lincoln", suggesting Lincoln's racism was the moral equivalent of Jefferson Davis' or John Wilkes Booth.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "I just wish, as I'm sure you do, that Lincoln had proposed a constitutional amendment before the war to end slavery through the peaceful constitutional amendment process. Say when he served in Congress.
But he didn't."

Lincoln was mentored in 1847 by John Quincy Adams, of the Founding generation, a participant in the original compromise accepting slavery in the Constitution.
Long before 1847 Adams had a plan to abolish slavery and according to this report taught it to Lincoln.

jeffersondem: "Of course, Lincoln had a very good reason for not introducing a constitutional amendment to abolish slavery before the war: it was not in his own best self-interest, or the interests of his economic and political backers."

Another of our Lost Cause Marxists' favorite meme's: Lincoln the economically self-interested class warrior.
But for Lincoln's generation the important question was: how does a country that agreed to slavery in its Constitution find ways to later abolish it?

That's not so much an "economic and political" matter as it is applied, Biblically based, morality.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Did you know Ft. Sumter was just as bad as Pearl harbor?
So i've been told anyway."

Each was the opening battle of the nation's two greatest wars.
So I've been told anyway.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Pragmatism makes a lot more sense when 750,000 people died forcing it on you.
Not so much when you have a choice."

Notice below who insisted on fighting to "the last man" and "extermination":
Hint: not Lincoln.

[jeffersondem]

“I get the triple lutz with pirouette you're hoping to perform . . .”

I see you started watching television again.

[jeffersondem]

“Each was the opening battle of the nation's two greatest wars.”

Pearl Harbor was a sneaky way for the Japs to start WWII.

Fort Sumter was a sneaky way for Lincoln to start his war.

[HandyDandy]

Solely in the interest of seeing this thread reach 1000 posts, I must say, “It was the third of June, another hot and dusty delta daaayaay. I was out picking cotton and my brother was bailing haaaaayaaay......”

[HandyDandy]

That is a very interesting comment. Is that where you get your information?

[BroJoeK]

HandyDandy post #936: "Another thing, no matter what Abe felt about blacks as a race, he found 'slavery' abhorrent."

DiogenesLamp: "Of course this still doesn't dovetail very well with his urging of the passage of the Corwin Amendment."

Which should on these threads always be referred to as the proposed "Jefferson Davis-Corwin amendment", since it was originally Senator Davis' idea, proposed months before Corwin did, before Mississippi declared secession.
Jeffy-boy thought such an amendment might stop secession, or even return already seceded states.
Of course, what would Jefferson Davis know about such matters?

Eventually the Davis-Corwin amendment was passed by Democrats & Republicans in Congress and approved by Democrat President Buchanan.
Lincoln mentioned it in his First Inaugural, saying he didn't oppose it because he believed it was already implied by existing Constitution language.

Of course, that's one point on which DiogeneseLamp and Lincoln heartily agree, suggesting DiogenesLamp is really a secret Lincoln-lover, but maybe that's a little too much?

Anyway, despite such tepid public support Lincoln oversaw the fact that only four states ratified Davis-Corwin: Kentucky, Maryland, Ohio & Rhode Island, and Ohio soon revoked its ratification.
So Davis was correct in thinking his amendment could prevent some slave-states from seceding, but wrong in supposing it might return already seceded states.
Of course, Davis himself made certain his amendment would not produce such effects, in April 1861, at Fort Sumter.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "The Corwin Amendment didn't really add much that wasn't already law."

Irrefutable proof that DiogenesLamp is secretly a Lincoln-lover.
Whatever could be next, DiogenesLamp's support for Lincoln's wartime Emancipation Proclamation?

;-)

[BroJoeK]

BJK #934: "I get the triple lutz with pirouette you're hoping to perform . . ."

jeffersondem: "I see you started watching television again."

Here's my level of expertise: I'm not certain if you can triple lutz & pirouette in the same venue.
And "logical lutz" should be sufficient to express my metaphor.

;-)

[jeffersondem]

“And “logical lutz” should be sufficient to express my metaphor.”

I don't care how anyone feels about Lincoln's War, that (your comment) right there is funny.