On this day in 1864

[Bull Snipe]

Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.

[DiogenesLamp]

In this specific case your correct. Machines would have replaced slaves, just as machines have replaced assembly line workers.

This was always coming. Slavery was going to go away no matter what. The real issue that caused the civil war has still not gone away (The NorthEast runs the nation for mostly it's own benefit) and is still with us today.

Nowadays we call it the "Swamp", or the "Deep State".

[DiogenesLamp]

It did not belong to them. The Government of South Carolina ceded the land that Sumter was built on in perpetuity to the Government of the United States.

King Charles II gave Pennsylvania to William Penn. Once Pennsylvania declared Independence, It belonged to the people who lived there.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "Had begun to abolish?
But they were still slaves states?"

My understanding is that abolition in most Northern states was a gradual event over years if not decades and began by prohibiting importing new slaves.
But in the 1790 census Massachusetts and Vermont reported freed blacks and no slaves.
In 1810 Northwest Territories (Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois & Wisconsin) began reporting freed blacks, but no slaves.

jeffersondem: "Today we must come to grips with the fact all the original states voted to include slavery in the constitution.
But only for a very good reason: it was determined it was in their own best economic and political best self-interest."

No "coming to grips" required since some Founders wanted abolition and others didn't, making it clear there could be no Union without slavery.
So Founders in 1787 put Union before abolition, as did Lincoln in 1861.

And what you so often refer to as "...economic and political best self-interest..." I'd call patriotism, love of country and mutual desires to achieve "the blessings of liberty" in a "more perfect Union".

But then I was never much for Marxist dialectics.

[DiogenesLamp]

three armed ships,

All the ships were armed, including the tug boats. There were 8 ships in total. (Quite a lot for a "provision" mission.")

one chartered commercial vessel carrying provision, troops and weapons,

Thank you witness. No further questions.

[DiogenesLamp]

When he was 5? I don't think even Lincoln was that precocious.

I dunno, a man that hunts vampires has got to be pretty aggressive.

[BroJoeK]

rockrr: "The Union did not enter the Civil War to free the slaves.
The Union entered the Civil War because the southern slavocracy went to war against them."

DiogenesLamp: By taking away their money stream from Europe."

Nonsense, and you well know it.
Confederates in 1861 first provoked war, then started war, formally declared war, and waged war in Union states, all the while refusing to stop fighting on any terms better than Unconditional Surrender.

And you well know that no Union official -- zero, nada, none -- was ever recorded as saying: "let's go to war to restore our money stream from Europe."

It's all just Lost Causer BS fantasies.

[BroJoeK]

Sorry, should have included you in addressees.

[DiogenesLamp]

News paper editorials are objective and have no reason to slant things to fit their agenda?

Foreign news paper editorials have no reason to slant things to fit their agenda. Domestic ones slant things all the time. It is still true today. If you want to find out the truth about what is happening in the United States now, you often have to go to foreign sources, because Domestic sources will often refuse to cover it.

It was indeed. The newspaper was criticizing Lincoln for not freeing slaves he didn't have the power to free under the Constitution.

But somehow he conjured it up, didn't he?

"Hocus Pocus! What I didn't have the power to do before, I now have the power to do!"

[jeffersondem]

“But then I was never much for Marxist dialectics.”

I have recommended that we don't play the race card and the slavery card the way that D’Souza does.

You have ignored that recommendation and it has blown up in your face a couple of times.

Now I recommend we don't attempt to play the Marxist card.

[DiogenesLamp]

None.

Exactly my point. They weren't using the army to free slaves, they were using the army to make sure slaves didn't leave the Washington DC plantation.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "You misunderstood and imagined more."

Wrong again.
I totally understood and caught you at trying to be too witty by half.
Now you're hoping to back away from it and pretend you didn't do it while accusing me or "misunderstanding".

So do you want me to go back up-thread and rub your nose in your little "mistake"?

;-)

[DiogenesLamp]

Force was only authorized if the authorities in Charleston resisted the resupply effort.

Because having dragged up over a hundred cannon and surrounding the fort with regiments of men did not adequately convey the impression that they were going to resist the resupply effort.

Yes, that bit was still up in the air, wasn't it?

The Ships were going to attack, and there is no dodging this bit of obvious truth.

Otherwise cite the direct order from Lincoln ordering his forces to fire on Charleston forces.

Lincoln issued these orders through his cabinet and subordinates. I think you've seen them before.

[DiogenesLamp]

Yep, Abe Lincoln, the smartest man in North America, so clever, so sly, so intelligent.

You mock, but the man was in fact quite brilliant. Have you ever read Lincoln's writings?

The south was doomed to failure the instant the prairie lawyer was elected.

The engineering of which (his election) was another good example of the sort of tricks he was known for.

He used his corporate railroad contacts to ship in thousands of astro-turf "supporters" (paid) to disrupt convention nominations and agitate until he won the nomination. He also promised federal jobs to enough delegates to create a preference cascade.

A fine bit of dirty trickery that.

[DiogenesLamp]

produce the orders where Lincoln ordered Fox’s ships to fire on Charleston

The orders were issued by Lincoln's chain of command, and i'm pretty sure i've already shown them to you before. If you really haven't seen them, let me know and I'll hunt them up for you.

[jeffersondem]

“And you well know that no Union official — zero, nada, none — was ever recorded as saying: “let's go to war to restore our money stream from Europe.”

I think this is the quote by the Union official you have been unable to find:

“The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.”

[DiogenesLamp]

cite the orders from Lincoln ordering the warships to attack.

Here is one of them.

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/001/0240

You can find others on other pages of this link.

[jeffersondem]

“So do you want me to go back up-thread and rub your nose in your little “mistake”?”

You know good and well you can not provoke me.

[DiogenesLamp]

That doesn't say a thing about people's right to vote. Were we not discussing people's right to vote?

By what authority were people denied the right to vote?

[DiogenesLamp]

cite the order issued to fire cannons at the people of Charleston.

Is "force" a euphemism for "cannons"? I sort of think it is. "Cannons" were the means of applying the "force".

Is this complicated or something?

[DiogenesLamp]

States could and did make slavery illegal.

How can they do that when the Constitution explicitly says that slaves must be returned to their masters?

A Slave caught in Massachusetts would have to be returned back to their master in accordance with the laws of the state where he was bound. So how did Massachusetts make slavery illegal in Massachusetts? It made it impossible to hold people based on Massachusetts laws, but it did nothing to stop them from being held under other state's laws.

The Supreme Court recognized that they could take that action.

I think Justice Story dreamed that one up out of thin air in his Prigg v Pennsylvania decision. It has caused us numerous bad consequences ever since.

The basic underlying principle is that a state does not have to enforce Federal Law, nor does a state have to render any assistance in enforcing Federal Law, and in fact states can throw up obstacles to Federal agents attempting to enforce Federal law.

And so we have states nowadays thwarting Federal immigration enforcement, and Federal drug laws.

Prigg v Pennsylvania was made up phoney baloney "Living Constitution" liberal crap.

It has also bitten us on the @$$ regarding the "natural born citizen" clause, which states ignored because they can't be made to enforce "federal" law.

Funny that so many people who claim to be fighting on behalf of the Federal Constitution were so darned determined to make sure it wasn't enforced.