Posted on 05/04/2018 6:42:25 AM PDT by Bull Snipe
Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.
“There was no “secession” in 1765, none, zero.”
This is a good catch by you.
The Lexington and Concord incidents occurred in 1775, not 1765. Sometimes I want to cut off my fat finger.
Further, formal secession was not memorialized until sometime the next year.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
It’s your head causing the error....if you’re thinking of cutting anything off...
But if the policy or the rule or the regulation or the legislation needed to begin the process of amending the constitution is in itself unconstitutional then how do you deal with it?
Let's take out the emotions by setting aside for a moment the CSA constitution and look instead at the USA constitution, amendment 1. It reads:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . . . or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press . . .”
Now suppose - two thirds of both Houses (USA) deem it necessary to abridge the freedom of the press by proposing a constitutional amendment providing that no newspaper can blah, blah, blah . . .
Are you of the opinion that such a proposed amendment is unconstitutional because the existing constitution says “Congress can make no law . . .”
That would make an interesting question for the Supreme Court and one which I have no doubt would make it to the Supreme Court in record time. But as I said, no such institution existed in the Confederacy. Davis was a believer that whatever it took to accomplish his purpose must be constitutional.
“But as I said, no such institution (Supreme Court) existed in the Confederacy. Davis was a believer that whatever it took to accomplish his purpose must be constitutional.”
Article III of the Confederate Constitution provides:
“Section I. (I) The judicial power of the Confederate States shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may, from time to time, ordain and establish. The judges, both of the Supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.”
The first session of the U.S. Supreme Court occurred February 1, 1790 in New York City - - nearly fifteen years after the opening shots at Lexington.
I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the fact the Confederate Supreme Court did not meet in the first four years of the war.
Which Davis and the Confederate Congress never established.
The first session of the U.S. Supreme Court occurred February 1, 1790 in New York City - - nearly fifteen years after the opening shots at Lexington.
LOL! Are you that uninformed in U.S. history? A Supreme Court was not required by the Articles of Confederation. It was not until the Constitution was ratified that something known as a "Supreme Court" became a requirement. In the first session of the First Congress of the United States the Judiciary Act organizing the court system, including a Supreme Court, was passed - September 24, 1789. A Supreme Court was nominated and confirmed by the Senate in time to meet for the first time February 1, 1790 - 11 months after the first day of the first session of Congress. Jefferson Davis had four years and he couldn't be bothered to establish the third branch of government that his constitution required.
I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the fact the Confederate Supreme Court did not meet in the first four years of the war.
Because the constitutionality of anything has never been of interest to Confederates or Confederate supporters.
“In the first session of the First Congress of the United States the Judiciary Act organizing the court system, including a Supreme Court, was passed - September 24, 1789. A Supreme Court was nominated and confirmed by the Senate in time to meet for the first time February 1, 1790 - 11 months after the first day of the first session of Congress. Jefferson Davis had four years and he couldn’t be bothered to establish the third branch of government that his constitution required.”
You make my point. Again.
During a war a brand new nation places emphasis on fighting and winning the war, not establishing a Supreme Court.
After the British captured the American capital (Philadelphia) George Washington had little need for a Supreme Court - his troops needed beans and bullets and shoes.
I don’t suppose those considerations would mean anything to some people.
Fifteen years after the shooting started, and seven years after the shooting ended, the U.S. got around to recognizing and addressing the need for a Supreme Court.
In one sense you are right: the U.S. didn’t even think about a Supreme Court until long after the fighting stopped.
And yet Davis had no problem keeping his revolving door of a cabinet fully stocked. He had four secretaries of state, when they had nobody to conduct foreign relations with. He had six attorneys general, without a judiciary to oversee. He had five secretaries of war, who he ignored. So why is it he could keep appointing people who were not required by the constitution but couldn't establish the third branch of government that was?
After the British captured the American capital (Philadelphia) George Washington had little need for a Supreme Court - his troops needed beans and bullets and shoes.
And once again, a Supreme Court was not required by the Articles of Confederation. Did that not sink in the first time I posted it? If was not until 1789 that one was, and it was certainly established and up-and-running in an admirably short period of time. Eleven months into the Davis regime but him in the December 1861/January 1862 time frame. Only one major battle had been fought, and four replacements to the cabinet had been appointed. But no Supreme Court. Which I guess is understandable. Why appoint something that might get in your way?
Fifteen years after the shooting started, and seven years after the shooting ended, the U.S. got around to recognizing and addressing the need for a Supreme Court
Took fifteen years to get around to appointing cabinet member too. It took Davis a day or two. All a matter of priorities I guess.
“And once again, a Supreme Court was not required by the Articles of Confederation. Did that not sink in the first time I posted it?”
I guess your point is that a new nation at war really doesn’t need a Supreme Court right away. As you say, other priorities.
O.K. You have convinced me.
“That would make an interesting question (circumstances under which a constitutional amendment can be unconstitutional) for the Supreme Court and one which I have no doubt would make it to the Supreme Court in record time.”
The last time I read Article V - the one governing amendments to the U.S. Constitution - I don’t remember seeing a provision requiring Supreme Court approval.
Can you tell me more about the Supreme Courts’ supposed veto role?
No, my point is, and I'm sorry you're having so much trouble understanding it, is that a Supreme Court was not required by the Articles of Confederation.
But I would also point out that the Confederacy did not base their own form of government on the Articles of Confederation but on the Constitution. They adopted the Constitution in its entirety when making their own, so they had 80 years of experience on which to draw on. They mandated a Supreme Court from the beginning. And that was only one of the constitutional requirements that they ignored.
Of course you don't. You don't seem to see the need for a court at all.
“It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.”— Robert E.Lee, at Fredericksburg.
And their 80 years of experience taught them an emerging nation can survive 15 years without a Supreme Court.
The South had provided for the creation of a SC in their constitution. But first they had to defeat McDowell at the first battle of Manassas.
Then they had to defeat McClellan.
Then they had to defeat Pope.
Then they had to fight McClellan, again.
Then they had to defeat Burnside.
Then they had to defeat Hooker.
And before they knew it, there was the disaster at Appomattox.
Too bad there was not an interim Confederate Supreme Court to issue international restraining orders and arrest warrants for Bloody Bill Anderson and Billy Sherman's cartel.
As well as the fact that Constitution is meaningless unless you want to abide by it.
The South had provided for the creation of a SC in their constitution. But first they had to defeat McDowell at the first battle of Manassas.
And why was that necessary before establishing the third branch of government required by the Constitution? Why was appointing six Attorney Generals more important than one supreme court justice? Why did Davis need four secretaries of state before one chief justice? Neither of those cabinet posts are required by the constitution but the court was. Why did the war demand a postmaster general but not a judge?
Too bad there was not an interim Confederate Supreme Court to issue international restraining orders and arrest warrants for Bloody Bill Anderson and Billy Sherman's cartel.
The reason being Davis didn't want one. Though I don't know what jurisdiction it would have had over Sherman.
Well, first, two thirds of 11 states is 8, of 13 is 9.
In which historical epoch would 8 or 9 Confederate states vote to abolish slavery?
But more important, no state could individually outlaw slavery, so there would be no such thing as a free-state in the Confederacy.
jeffersondem: "Confederate states could secede from the CSA and abolish slavery in their own state."
Just as West Virginia did in 1861?
And Confederates respected West Virginia's "right of secession" in what way, exactly?
No problem, understood, sadly all my fingers are fat, any one of them could make such a mistake.
Worse yet, my eyes are perfectly capable of overlooking it!
;-)
jeffersondem: "I guess your point is that a new nation at war really doesn’t need a Supreme Court right away.
As you say, other priorities.
O.K. You have convinced me."
No, the point is: before 1788 there was no constitutional authority or requirement for a Supreme Court, period.
Once the requirement was ratified, Congress acted very quickly to fulfill its Constitutional obligations.
By sharp contrast, neither the Confederate congress nor President Davis ever moved to fulfill obligations imposed by the Confederate constitution regarding its Supreme Court.
And the larger point is that Democrats only care about constitutional issues when they can use them to bludgeon Republicans.
Can we think of modern examples?
So while Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia was busy with McDowell, McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker, and Meade
What was the Confederate Congress and the President of the Confederacy doing. They were safe and secure in Richmond, far away from most of those battlefields. Why did they feel that it was not necessary to establish a Supreme Court within the Confederacy.
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