On this day in 1864

[Bull Snipe]

Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.

[jeffersondem]

“Davis gave them ample excuse to use military force, he started a war with the United States.”

It was during the early fog of war that Lincoln dispatched the U.S. navy, resulting in the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

Errrr, I mean the Ft. Sumter incident.

[Bull Snipe]

Firing on a Federal military installation is not “the fog of war”. It is an intentional act of war.

[jeffersondem]

“Firing on a Federal military installation is not “the fog of war”. It is an intentional act of war.”

The firing did not occur until Lincoln dispatched the U.S. navy into South Carolina waters resulting in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I mean . . . the Ft. Sumter incident.

My reference to the fog of war relates to the belief by many, to this day, that the South was in some way responsible for Lincoln's decision to go to war.

[Bull Snipe]

Davis pulled the trigger. Reasons why matters not. Davis fired on a Federal Post. Act of War. Naval vessels at sea are not an act of war. Those ships did not even fire a shot.

[rockrr]

And his common sense is totally AWOL...

[jeffersondem]

“Reasons why matters not.”

Now I think I understand why you hold certain views.

[OIFVeteran]

He used the US military to suppress a insurrection, which the constitution explicitly gives him the power to do. Much the same way that George Washington used the military to suppress the Whiskey rebellion.

Congress used the constitutional process of amendments to end slavery in the country.

[OIFVeteran]

I used to despise the confederate rebels for attempting to destroy the United States. However, after more reading and thought I came to the same conclusion as you did, the evil of slavery would have most likely continued into the 20th century if not for the civil war.

If the southern states had not rebelled they would have had enough votes in congress to block most, if not all, of the republicans anti-slavery efforts.

[jeffersondem]

“This THEN ADDED TO THE US CAUSE THE ENDING OF SLAVERY in the US. Giving the US the moral high ground in the WAR.”

A second view: “He used the US military to suppress a insurrection, which the constitution explicitly gives him the power to do.”

Critic answers critic.

[Vermont Lt]

Still sore losers.

[jeffersondem]

“I used to despise the confederate rebels for attempting to destroy the United States.”

That is an interesting comment.

When you say “destroy the United States”, do you mean “destroy” the way the colonies “destroyed” Britain.

[jeffersondem]

“Still sore losers.”

One hundred fifty three years and twenty seven days is not that long in time.

I continue to be amazed at how cheerful the South was to forgive and forget.

[BroJoeK]

DoodleDawg on critics of the Union: "And who better to go to for an understanding of the Constitution than a British newspaper editorial?"

jeffersondem: "Perhaps an editorial in an opposition newspaper in the United States.
But then, they were locked up about the time the famed constitutional attorney suspended the writ of habeas corpus."

It's sometimes implied the Confederacy was a white libertarian's paradise.
Not so much:

"The Confederacy actively used the army to arrest people suspected of loyalty to the United States.
Historian Mark Neely found 4,108 names of men arrested and estimated a much larger total.[261]
The Confederacy arrested pro-Union civilians in the South at about the same rate as the Union arrested pro-Confederate civilians in the North.[262]
Neely argues:
"The Confederate citizen was not any freer than the Union citizen – and perhaps no less likely to be arrested by military authorities.
In fact, the Confederate citizen may have been in some ways less free than his Northern counterpart.
For example, freedom to travel within the Confederate states was severely limited by a domestic passport system.[263]"

In addition to outright arrests, Confederate authorities had other means for controlling their own rebellious citizens:

"Vice President Alexander H. Stephens feared losing the very form of republican government.
Allowing President Davis to threaten 'arbitrary arrests' to draft hundreds of governor-appointed 'bomb-proof' bureaucrats conferred 'more power than the English Parliament had ever bestowed on the king.
History proved the dangers of such unchecked authority.'[233]
The abolishment of draft exemptions for newspaper editors was interpreted as an attempt by the Confederate government to muzzle presses, such as the Raleigh NC Standard, to control elections and to suppress the peace meetings there."

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "Now the claim is being made that Lincoln, at some point, decided to use the war to end slavery because of moral and perhaps religious beliefs, not just military necessity as others have claimed.
If true - and there is evidence to support the claim - Lincoln was using the military to violently overthrow the pro-slavery U.S. constitution (with an eye toward tidying things up with a constitutional amendment after the war.)"

From Day One, the US Constitution protected slavery where it was lawful in Union states.
That could only be changed by constitutional amendment.

By contrast, states & regions in rebellion had no such protections and could have their "property" declared "contraband of war" for military reasons.
At least that was the theory reportedly given to young Lincoln during his brief time in Congress (1848) by old Founder John Quincy Adams.
And it's what Lincoln did after the Confederate declaration of war on the United States, May 6, 1861.

John Quincy Adams & Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln's faith

[BroJoeK]

RegulatorCountry: "What effect did the proposed 13th Amendment have during the Civil War and what effect did it have for slaves in Union states after the conclusion of the war?
None, not until passage.
Why didn't the virtuous Union pass the 13th Amendment itself?
They were afraid to upset the Union slave states."

Civil War began in April 1861, the first Battle of Bull Run in July.
By August 1861 slaves were running away to Union lines and Congress passed the first Confiscation Act protecting them from return.
In 1862 Congress outlawed slavery in Washington, DC, and Lincoln wrote his Emancipation Proclamation.
Congress debated various slavery related proposals and in 1863 proposed an abolition amendment, which passed the Senate in 1864 and the House in 1865.

Ratifications:

1. 13th amendment: 1865
2. 14th amendment: 1868
3. 15th amendment: 1870

Oh, our Lost Causers claim, but Congress was way too slow, since it took them years to accomplish what was previously impossible for decades, if not centuries.
So Congress gets no credit for abolishing slavery, but only censure for taking so long to do it, our Lost Causers tell us.

Well, that's just your typical Democrat talk.
Ask any Democrat today if President Trump gets credit for 3.9% unemployment, what's the answer?
No freaking way, they say, because wages are still too low.
Well, what about the tax cuts, we ask?
Nothing but "crumbs" they say, and so it goes, on & on.

Democrats are oppressive in power, berserkers out of power, both today and 1861.
In 1830 it was nullification, in 1861 secession, today sanctuary cities & state, all just more of Democrats doing what Democrats naturally do.

[BroJoeK]

RegulatorCountry: "There was no Federal government effort resulting in the nationwide freeing of slaves until after the end of the Civil War with the 13th Amendment, and even that was passed with the aid of imposed, military occupation Reconstruction governments in the south."

Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation eventually covered 3.5 million Deep South and Upper South slaves.
At the same time Union slave states also freed their slaves:

1. Maryland freed its 87,000 slaves in 1864
2. Missouri freed its 115,000 slaves in January 1865
3. West Virginia freed its 18,000 slaves in February 1865
4. Kentuckians freed or lost through runaways 75% of their 225,000 slaves during the war leaving about 50,000 for the 13th amendment.
5. Delawarians had already freed over 90% of their 21,000 slaves before 1860.

So by my count, when the 13th Amendment went into effect in December 1865, it actually freed only 50,000 in Kentucky and 1,500 in Delaware.
All the others, nearly 90%, were already freed, de jure or de facto.

RegulatorCountry: "When pinned down, you'll speak truth but you're in service to the big propaganda lie"

RegulatorCountry: "You're also in service to the big lie that the Union fought the Civil War to free the slaves"

Most curious to note here that term "big lie" because it defines the Lost Causer mythology -- a pack of lies from the beginning requiring ever more lies to defend it, as we see in RegulatorCountry's posts here.

Sad.

[BroJoeK]

RegulatorCountry: "it might be useful to ponder the impact of Amendments and legislation passed with the aid of imposed, military occupation Reconstruction governments in the south."

Well, after Appomattox former Confederates were naturally forbidden to vote, while their former slaves did vote, resulting in the amendments & laws you reference.
So clearly & obviously those acts expressed the wills of voters at that time.

But what's even more "useful to ponder" is what happened after the election of 1876, when the old pre-war alliance of Southern slavers with Northern Big City immigrant bosses reestablished itself enough to allow Democrats to make important demands in exchange for supporting a Republican president.
What demands?

Well, essentially nullification of the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments for the next 100+ years and the rule of Black Laws, Jim Crow & KKK type enforcers.

Plus the teaching of fake history about the Civil War to generations of young minds throughout the South, resulting in some outrageous nonsense we see here.

[jeffersondem]

“By contrast, states & regions in rebellion had no such protections and could have their “property”declared “contraband of war” for military reasons.

Prior to Lincoln’s War there were few that didn’t believe secession was permissible. Read what one revered expert taught:

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. ... Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.”

[jeffersondem]

“The Confederacy arrested pro-Union civilians in the South at about the same rate as the Union arrested pro-Confederate civilians in the North.”

Damning Lincoln by Confederate comparison.

I wasn't expecting you to do that.

[Bull Snipe]

“after Appomattox former Confederates were naturally forbidden to vote,”
Cite the Federal law that prevented former Confederates from voting.