On this day in 1864

[Bull Snipe]

Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.

[jeffersondem]

“If the tires on your F-150 whirl, you’d better get that checked out.”

One day you'll run over a milk carton on campus in your Prius. When you find yourself desperately phoning Washington for help, you will know why being high-centered is not something to ignore.

[HandyDandy]

I drove a ‘97/‘98 F-250HD for at least 15 years. Never got hung up on anything. Keep on truckin’ and twirling, guy. You really should stop digging. You are already drilling yourself into a deep hole with all your pirouette-ing. Stop bothering me. You have zero credibility here.

[HandyDandy]

Your repetitive statements are worn threadbare. But please don’t bother trying to use your own words. You’re running on fumes. Quit before you further embarrass yourself.

[jeffersondem]

“Hopefully, when I wake up tomorrow this thread will have cracked 1,000 posts and my work here will be done.”

You indicated you would stop after post 1,000. You are now at post 1,022.

Just another broken promise.

[HandyDandy]

Try this out. It is a very good summary of the scenario that you have been struggling to turn into a conspiracy theory. It is short and sweet and guess where I found it:

“The seceded states laid claim to the national forts within their boundaries, but they did not make good their claim to Fort Sumter in South Carolina and Forts Pickens, Zachary Taylor, and Jefferson in Florida. They soon made it clear that they would use force if necessary to gain possession of Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens. President Abraham Lincoln resolved not to cede them without a fight. Secretary of State William H. Seward, Captain Montgomery C. Meigs of the US Army, and Porter devised a plan for the relief of Fort Pickens. The principal element of their plan required use of the steam frigate USS Powhatan, which would be commanded by Porter and would carry reinforcements to the fort from New York. Because no one was above suspicion in those days, the plan had to be implemented in complete secrecy; not even Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles was to be advised.

Welles was in the meantime preparing an expedition for the relief of the garrison at Fort Sumter. As he was unaware that Powhatan would not be available, he included it in his plans. When the other vessels assigned to the effort showed up, the South Carolina troops at Charleston began to bombard Fort Sumter, and the Civil War was on. The relief expedition could only wait outside the harbor. The expedition had little chance to be successful in any case; without the support of the guns on Powhatan, it was completely impotent. The only contribution made by the expedition was to carry the soldiers who had defended Fort Sumter back to the North following their surrender and parole.

Lincoln did not punish Seward for his part in the incident, so Welles felt that he had no choice but to forgive Porter, whose culpability was less. Later, he reasoned that it had at least a redeeming feature in that Porter, whose loyalty had been suspect, was henceforth firmly attached to the Union. As he wrote,

“In detaching the Powhatan from the Sumter expedition and giving the command to Porter, Mr. Seward extricated that officer from Secession influences, and committed him at once, and decisively, to the Union cause."

Wikipedia

[HandyDandy]

I indicated that my work here would be finished, Mr Lincoln’s War Conflicted Lost Causer. Now I am just enjoying the spoils. And you are the number one spoil. Keep spinning, keep embarrassing yourself.

[jeffersondem]

“I indicated that my work here would be finished, Mr Lincoln’s War Conflicted Lost Causer. Now I am just enjoying the spoils.”

Already revising the explanation.

Admittedly, your combative messaging combined with rib-ticklin’ comedy does invite admiration for a twisted mind.

[DiogenesLamp]

Because no one was above suspicion in those days, the plan had to be implemented in complete secrecy; not even Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles was to be advised.

And yet the orders for all other ships were quite public. Why secrecy for just one ship? How does that even slightly make sense?

The relief expedition could only wait outside the harbor. The expedition had little chance to be successful in any case; without the support of the guns on Powhatan, it was completely impotent.

Some time earlier in one of these discussion threads I posted a quote from Captain Abner Doubleday of the US Army, and he said that it would have been pointless for the Navy to engage and that if they had done so, all the ships would have been sunk. That is one expert Military opinion on the topic. Yesterday I posted commentary from David Dixon Porter that said the same thing. (another military expert.) Here it is again.

So we have two military experts with knowledge of the situation saying this mission was literally impossible and would have resulted in the loss of many men and all the ships who engaged.

So was President Lincoln some sort of blithering idiot? Had the mission went as the men aboard those ships (and the Southerners) had been led to believe, it would have been an utter and humiliating disaster.

But look! For some amazing reason, the command ship, (the only one given secret orders) didn't show up, the ships didn't engage as everyone believed they would, and the "blithering idiot" disaster was miraculously avoided!

Wow! That Lincoln is just D@mn lucky that the orders all somehow managed to get jumbled up! He must be Irish and sh*ts horseshoes! He was saved by his own blundering incompetence by an astonishing twist of fate!

To quote David Dixon Porter above, "a more foolish expedition was never dispatched."

Yeah, it was very foolish, but it somehow managed to achieve everything Lincoln wanted in giving him power to stop the Confederates from becoming independent of the Washington DC/New York "establishment."

That Lincoln was just D@mn lucky, wasn't he?

[HandyDandy]

Your slip is showing. Please stop pestering me. You remind me of a yippy-yappy little lap dog nipping at my ankles. You are desperate to find a chink in my armor. Searching for little nuggets of fools gold, as Lost Causers are wont to do. It is all they do. Well, I say, “Bollocks!”

“The Confederacy viewed the presence of U.S. troops in the South after legal secession as the presence of a foreign garrison.” J. Effersondem

[HandyDandy]

You have a unique way of convoluting very simple things. That is the mark of a conspiracy theorist. Your bias is very strong, grasshopper.

By the way, you wouldn’t happen to be missing a puppy, would you? There is one that has been spotted around here running loose.

[HandyDandy]

ps I did use make a misake a page or two back. I spelled “were” as “where”. Go see if you can find it. Go. Fetch.

[jeffersondem]

“Never got hung up on anything.”

That determination is best left to a competent team of psychologists.

[HandyDandy]

Plucking a sentence out of a paragraph and commenting on it out of context is the sign of .......... well, I’m really not sure. I can think of several things but I want you to tell me. What is that a sign of?

[DiogenesLamp]

Conspiracy? It was one guy named “Lincoln”. If you’ve kept up with his methodology for winning elections, you would know that pulling tricks was his modus operandi.

[DiogenesLamp]

It’s a sign of nothing. I find many of your’s and other’s sentences to be unworthy of any commentary. I pick the ones I think are relevant, and to those I respond.

[jeffersondem]

“ps I did use make a misake a page or two back. I spelled “were” as “where”.” (sic)

Don't worry about it. You are among friends here.

[BroJoeK]

HandyDandy: "Among other things, you are glossing over the fact that Sumter, for all intent and purposes, was under siege."

DiogenesLamp: "They weren't supposed to be there at all.
Had they been honest about their intentions, the Confederates would have seized Sumter first..."

I was just reviewing the Fort Sumter timeline, some interesting tidbits:

1. On November 7, 1860 -- the day after Lincoln's election, Charleston SC authorities arrested a Federal officer for trying to transfer supplies from the US Army's Charleston Arsenal to Fort Moultrie.
   Note this was before SC's legislature on November 10 called for a convention to declare secession, which they did on December 18.
   This tells us that, unlike DiogenesLamp, 1860-61 secessionists really didn't care about legal niceties & justifications, that for them it was strictly "might makes right", and since they wanted to restrict arms transfers, that was plenty enough reason.

2. On November 13, still a month before its secession conference met, the SC state legislature resolved to raise 10,000 volunteers to defend the state.
   This when the US Army totaled about 16,000 most scattered in Western forts.
   It tells us secessionists expected war, and unlike DiogenesLamp, didn't care who started it.

3. On November 18, still a month before SC secession, Georgia's legislature voted $1 million to arm Georgia.
   It shows that, unlike DiogenesLamp, Georgians expected violence, even before declaring secession.

4. On November 23, still weeks before secession, Major Anderson at Fort Sumter reported his small garrison was being "openly and publicly threatened".
   It shows that, unlike DiogenesLamp, SC secessionists weren't concerned about legalistic niceties in exerting authority over Federal properties & officials.
   Anderson requested reinforcements, a request frequently repeated.

5. On December 4, still weeks before any secession, outgoing Democrat President Buchanan announced the SC forts would be defended if attacked.

6. On December 8, still weeks before secession, a delegation of SC congressmen called on President Buchanan, telling him reinforcements for Maj. Anderson would cause what Buchanan wanted to avoid.
   The congressmen asked Buchanan to meet SC commissioners to consider turning over Federal property to SC.
   This tells us that, unlike DiogenesLamp, the SC congressmen consider Federal property to be Federal property, regardless of SC's secession status.

7. On December 10, still before secession, SC congressmen told Buchanan SC would not attack US forts in Charleston provided they were not reinforced.
   They also hoped an offer would be made for amicable arrangements, thus recognizing, unlike DiogenesLamp, that 1) US forts did not automatically belong to SC on secession, and that 2) secessionists had no hesitation about attacking first, if the US did not respond to their demands.

8. On December 11 Virginian Democrat US Secretary of War Floyd (future Confederate general) ordered Major Anderson to occupy whichever forts he felt most defensible and to defend them if attacked.

9. On December 18, 1860, SC's convention voted 169 to zero for secession.

10. December 21, Lincoln wrote Missouri Republican leader Francis Blair that,
    "according to my present view if the forts {at Charleston} shall be given up before the inauguration, the General {Scott} must retake them afterwards."
    This shows us Lincoln's later actions were consistent with earlier thinking.

11. December 22, SC's convention named three commissioners to deal with the US regarding Federal property.
    It also said the forts should now
    "be subject to the authority and control" of SC and "that the possession of said forts and arsenal should be restored to the state of South Carolina."
    This shows that, unlike DiogenesLamp, commissioners did not consider those forts to have automatically transferred ownership from the US to SC, and they intended to send commissioners to deal with US Federal properties.

    That same day Lincoln wrote to Georgia Congressman (future Confederate VP of cornerstone fame) saying:

    "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended, while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted.
    That I suppose is the rub."
    This shows that, unlike DiogenesLamp, Lincoln considered the root cause all about slavery.

12. December 24, Congress refused to recognize SC's secession.

13. December 26, Major Anderson moved his garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter saying,
    "The step which I have taken was, in my opinion, necessary to prevent the efusion of blood..."
    thus confirming secessionists' violent intentions, despite DiogenesLamp's denials.
    In Washington, SC commissioners arrived to discuss the forts.

14. December 27, SC troops seized Castle Pickney, Fort Moultrie, and USRC William Aiken.
    President Buchanan claimed to Southern representatives that Anderson's move to Fort Sumter had been against his orders, but in that he was mistaken.

    Secretary of War Floyd (future Confederate general) strongly advocated removing all Federal troops from Charleston on grounds Anderson violated Washington pledges.
    In that Floyd was mistaken.

15. December 26, President Buchanan met with SC commissioners for the only time and only as "private gentlemen" -- he could not recognize them as representing a sovereign power.
    The commissioners demanded immediate Federal withdrawal from Fort Sumter but Buchanan refused.
    General Scott opposed evacuation, as did Attorney General Stanton.
    At a cabinet meeting Stanton & Floyd almost came to blows over it.

16. December 29, Floyd resigned amid charges of treason.

17. December 30, Buchanan's Secretary of State Black and Attorney General Stanton advised: 1) against giving up Charleston forts, 2) they must be defended, 3) no violation of orders by Anderson, 4) no meeting with SC commissioners and 5) warships should be sent to Charleston with reinforcements.
    General Scott also asked for 250 troops as reinforcements.

18. December 31, President Buchanan told SC commissioners Congress must define relations between Federal government and SC, denied any pledge to preserve status of forts and noted how SC seized other Federal properties.
    He refused to withdraw Anderson's garrison and issued orders for ships, troops and stores to sail for Fort Sumter.
    This tells us that, unlike DiogenesLamp, Doughfaced Democrat Predsident Buchanan did not buy secessionists' claims that somehow Federal property magically became not Federal on SC secession.

19. January 1, 1861 Charleston secessionists preparations for war continued with general mobilization, night patrols & guards for wharves & vessels.

20. January 2, SC commissioners responded to Buchanan with your typical Democrat b*t-sh*t nonsense, claiming,
    "You have resolved to hold by force what you have obtained through our misplaced confidence..."
    Buchanan read their letter at his cabinet meeting which agreed that reinforcement be sent to Fort Sumter.

21. January 3, SC commissioners gave up & left Washington for Charleston.
    Georgia state troops seized Federal Fort Pulaski, weeks before declaring secession, thus demonstrating that, unlike DiogenesLamp, they cared nothing for legal niceties.

22. January 4, Alabama secessionists took over the US Arsenal at Mount Vernon, Alabama, a week before declaring secession.

23. January 5, Star of the West left New York for Fort Sumter with supplies and 250 troops.
    General Scott substituted merchant ship Star of the West for the warship Brooklyn, thinking it might better sneak into Charleston harbor.
    Scott was mistaken.

    Alabama secessionists seized Federal Forts Morgan & Gains, still before declaring secession.

24. January 6, Florida secessionists seized the Federal Arsenal at Apalochicola, before declaring secession.

    Democrat New York Power-broker, Mayor Fernando Wood, proposed to secede & make New York a free-city, trading with both North & South.
    This shows that, contrary to DiogenesLamp's claims, "Northeastern Power Brokers" were not overly concerned to prevent Deep South secessions.

25. January 7, Florida secessionists seized Federal Fort Marion.
    The US House of Representatives approved Maj. Anderson's move to Fort Sumter.

26. January 8, Mississippian US Secretary of Interior telegraphed Charleston advising of Star of the West's mission and resigned from Buchanan's cabinet.
    Buchanan sent Congress a special message throwing the whole problem in into their hands.
    At Fort Barrancas, Pensacola, Federal troops fired warning shots at about 20 men approaching them late at night.
    This was before Florida's secession, so the incident cannot have been a civil war action.

27. January 9, Secessionists fired on Star of the West which retreated, its reinforcement mission not accomplished.
    Major Anderson protested to SC Governor Pickens who replied that sending reinforcements was considered a hostile act and must be repelled.
    This shows that, contrary to DiogenesLamp's claims, no Lincoln "war armada" was necessary for secessionists to begin war over Fort Sumter.

28. January 20, ex-Senator Jefferson Davis wrote his friend Doughfaced Northern Democrat ex-President Pierce,
    "When Lincoln comes in he will have but to continue in the path of his predecessor to inaugurate a civil war."

These examples are intended to illustrate the point that, unlike DiogenesLamp, 1860-61 secessionists cared nothing for legal niceties, merely insisting, under threat of violence, the Federal government must turn over its properties in secession states.
And Jefferson Davis considered even Doughfaced President Buchanan's mildest of responses adequate to "inaugurate a civil war".

[jeffersondem]

“This shows that, unlike DiogenesLamp, Lincoln considered the root cause all about slavery.”

If true, then maybe Lincoln did plan to “fight a war to free the slaves.”

But first Lincoln would need a pretext for war which he found in the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

I mean, the Ft. Sumter incident.

[DoodleDawg]

But first Lincoln would need a pretext for war which he found in the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

I mean, the Ft. Sumter incident

No, I'm sure you meant the first one, since there is no resemblance between the two.

[jeffersondem]

“No, I’m sure you meant the first one, since there is no resemblance between the two.”

We have liftoff!

Welcome back to the second thousand. Same as the first one thousand.