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To: jeffersondem
jeffersondem: "See: “HE has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us . . .”
Read it again.
For the first time."

Sorry, we've covered this ground before.
In fact, there were no slave-revolts -- zero, zip, nada slave revolts, at that time.
But there were a good many "domestic Insurrections" excited by the Brits -- American loyalists insurrections against patriots.

So that line in the Declaration of Independence does not refer to slavery.
Nor does any other, making your claims here bogus.

320 posted on 11/29/2017 4:21:03 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: BroJoeK; rockrr; DoodleDawg; DiogenesLamp

“So that line (HE has excited domestic Insurrections) in the Declaration of Independence does not refer to slavery.”

It is interesting to watch you debate the DOI with Thomas Jefferson.

Elsewhere you have referenced, and vouched for the reliability of, Jefferson’s “deleted paragraph.”

The deleted paragraph reads, in one or more of the drafts:

“He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither.  This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain.  Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce.  And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed again the Liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.”

Note well Jefferson’s words: “he is now exciting those VERY PEOPLE to rise in arms among us (emphasis added).”

And what “very people” is he talking about?

Indians? No.

Other British citizens? No.

Slaves? Yes. Read it again for the first time.

It is tricky business to cite language that the 13 slave states voted NOT to include in the DOI as definitive of what their thinking was. I would not have attempted it if you had not vouched for its relevance.

But there can be no doubt that Jefferson was writing about slaves and slave rebellions even if his colleagues voted to amend the final language to something less condemning and more euphemistic.


323 posted on 11/29/2017 4:40:13 PM PST by jeffersondem
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To: BroJoeK
“In fact, there were no slave-revolts — zero, zip, nada slave revolts, at that time.”

Let's try to reel in some line here.

Jefferson writes in an early draft of the DOI:

“He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither.  This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain.  Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce.  And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed again the Liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.”

This passage contains at least two grievances; let's look at the one where Jefferson writes of “those very people”, “rise in arms”, and murder(ing).

To me, Jefferson is writing here about slaves rising in arms and murdering their masters.

Can you and I agree on that much?

418 posted on 12/07/2017 2:55:03 PM PST by jeffersondem
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To: BroJoeK; x; HandyDandy; rockrr; DoodleDawg; DiogenesLamp
“In fact, there were no slave-revolts — zero, zip, nada slave revolts, at that time. But there were a good many “domestic Insurrections” excited by the Brits — American loyalists insurrections against patriots.
So that line in the Declaration of Independence does not refer to slavery. Nor does any other, making your claims here bogus.”

Comes now the Virginia Congress with the contemporaneous findings of slave insurrections that some claim do not exist.

Text of Virginia Congress Declaration

Virginia, Dec. 14, 1775.

By the Representatives of the People of the Colony and Dominion of VIRGINIA, assembled in GENERAL CONVENTION

A DECLARATION

WHEREAS lord Dunmore, by his proclamation, dated on board the ship William, off Norfolk, the 7th day of November 1775, hath offered freedom to such able-bodied slaves as are willing to join him, and take up arms, against the good people of this colony, giving thereby encouragement to a general insurrection, which may induce a necessity of inflicting the severest punishments upon those unhappy people, already deluded by his base and insidious arts; and whereas, by an act of the General Assembly now in force in this colony, it is enacted, that all negro or other slaves, conspiring to rebel or make insurrection, shall suffer death, and be excluded all benefit of clergy : We think it proper to declare, that all slaves who have been, or shall be seduced, by his lordship's proclamation, or other arts, to desert their masters’ service, and take up arms against the inhabitants of this colony, shall be liable to such punishment as shall hereafter be directed by the General Convention. And to that end all such, who have taken this unlawful and wicked step, may return in safety to their duty, and escape the punishment due to their crimes, we hereby promise pardon to them, they surrendering themselves to Col. William Woodford, or any other commander of our troops, and not appearing in arms after the publication hereof. And we do farther earnestly recommend it to all humane and benevolent persons in this colony to explain and make known this our offer of mercy to those unfortunate people.

EDMUND PENDLETON, president.

439 posted on 12/11/2017 2:28:19 PM PST by jeffersondem
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To: BroJoeK; x; rockrr; HandyDandy; DiogenesLamp
“In fact, there were no slave-revolts — zero, zip, nada slave revolts, at that time.”

I love it when you play George Hayes to my Marion Morrison.

Reminds me of the time you and I did the unrehearsed comedic skit where you used a couple of typewriter ribbons making the case that Pennsylvania was NOT a northern state. When I said it was a northern state there must have been a million people send me (or thought about sending me) a private email telling me I was a genius.

And remember the time you adamantly said no American had ever used the word “chivvied?” My sides still hurt.

And who can forget when you, for no discernible reason, decided to pick a fight over the term “tally book.” It must have taken only 30 seconds to get the facts but the good clean fun will last a lifetime.

Now you contend that you know more than Jefferson and the Virginia Congress about events surrounding the revolution.

You have made 2017 a rib-tickling year.

469 posted on 12/17/2017 4:49:01 PM PST by jeffersondem
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