Posted on 05/22/2016 2:44:01 PM PDT by sparklite2
Francis Bowns claim that the sacrament of holy orders in the Roman Catholic church has always been confined to men (Letters, 19 May) is contradicted by the research of Cipriano Vagaggini in 1974. Pope Paul VI invited Fr Vagaggini, as a member of the official International Theological Commission, to research this matter, and the resulting work showed clearly that women were ordained to the diaconate as a sacrament of the church throughout the first millennium and beyond. Among those whose work confirms this, Professor Gary Macy of Santa Clara University reports that the shocking reason for the gradual decline in the office of women deacons in the early centuries of the second millennium was prejudicial male attitudes to menstruation. The 12th-century canonist Theodore Balsamon wrote that the monthly affliction banished them from the divine and holy sanctuary. What the pope is playing with is surely the fire of the spirit sending gifts not on selected groups but on all and for all. Cathy Wattebot Coventry
Francis Bown thinks Pope Francis is playing with fire as he sets up a commission to consider the ordination of women as deacons. Lets hope its the fire of the holy spirit, the one which promised to guide all who are far off, all whom God will call. I believe that offers some freedom from the necessity to adhere to the social constraints of first-century Palestine and to constantly rebuild a church fit for purpose rather than a historical re-enactment society.
(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...
Thanks for the reply. I’ll take a closer look at those verses.
Also, same general trend....Solomon wrote as the Preacher, “Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.” Ecclesiastes 7:28.
I don’t know much about the Bible but can you point to me the specific verse in the Bible where it forbids female pastors?
Communist, you say? That may give them the inside track to Frankie. He sorta leans that way.
Nonsense! Down through the ages, women have occupied minor, or occasionally no, role in the Christian church. Many men grew up in the belief that women should not offer prayers, give Bible studies, or preach sermons. In the Catholic church, the role if women was confined to holy orders, in which they gave up any normal life to be the “brides of Christ.” Most protestant churches, up to the 20th century, limited women to clerical or charitable work. (As an aside, the church I grew up in, the Church of God, was one of the first to offer widespread ordination to women.)
Most of this doctrine is based on only two passages written by Paul. Jesus never said any of this. In fact, His example and teachings overturned much of what was believed and practiced at his time. It goes without saying that Paul cannot contradict Jesus. Since these two passages seem contradict Jesus, whose words and behavior overturned the customs of the time, they must be either misunderstood or mistranslated.
The scriptures were translated by men, many of whom had cultural prejudices against women. Often, the translations support the conventions of the time more than the words used in the Bible. Sometimes theyre just the wrong word. The Greek word, “anthropos” means human being and includes both male and female sexes. However, this word is translated as “man” 586 times in the KJV and never as woman.
Take 1 Timothy 3:1-2: “This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;”
Paul was fluent in Greek. In this passage, he uses a word form, ei tis, that can mean man or woman. If he had intended to limit the position of bishop (or overseer) to men only, he would have used the all male word, “aner.” This should read, If any person desires the office of bishop, he or she desires a good work. . .
1 Timothy 3:5: “For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?”
The Greek word tis “ means anyone. The reading should be, “For if anyone know not how to rule his or her house...”
As weve already seen, Christian traditions were pretty much decided by MEN, but has it always been that way? Paul refutes this himself:
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:26-28)
So God gives spiritual gifts to both men and women as He sees fit, not as men decide!
So what roles did women play in the early church?
They were apostles (Romans 16:7): “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”
Here Paul praises Junia as “outstanding among the apostles.” Junia, a Roman woman converted before Paul, is praised with Andronicus, who was believed to be her husband. Both were doing an excellent job among the apostles, and had been imprisoned with Paul probably because of their active leadership roles. Paul knew these two very well, having been in prison with them. Paul considered them apostles just as he considered himself an apostle.
Women were prophets in both the Old and New Testaments. Besides Deborah, who was a prophet and judge, there are 13 other women noted as prophets in the Bible. Here are a few more.
Acts 21:8-9: “Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried DAUGHTERS who PROPHESIED.”
An evangelist named Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses. Continuing the passage, we find another cultural and contextual misunderstanding laid on Paul. Other women in the church were praying and prophesying aloud and a controversy arose over whether these women needed to veil themselves as the Hebrew women did. Finally Paul decided their long hair was covering enough as they prayed and prophesied during church services (1 Cor 11:5-16).
Luke 2:36: Anna was also a prophetess.
Women will also be prophets in the future. Acts 2:17-18”In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and DAUGHTERS will PROPHESY, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I will POUR OUT MY SPIRIT in those days, and they will PROPHESY.”
Women were evangelists. Paul is famous for his evangelizing trips. On at least one of those trips, a woman, Priscilla, together with her husband Aquila, accompanied Paul to Ephesus. Paul continued on and left them behind to evangelize.
Acts 18:25-26: “[Apollos] had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When PRISCILLA AND AQUILA heard him, they invited him TO THEIR HOME and EXPLAINED to him the WAY OF GOD MORE ADEQUATELY.”
Romans 16:3-5: Priscilla and Aquila also established a church in Rome, and risked their lives for Paul. (It has been theorized, though never proven, that Priscilla was the real author of “Hebrews.”)
Phil. 4:2-3: Paul wrote about two women who “contended at my side in the cause of the gospel.” These women, Euodia and Syntyche, evangelized publicly with Paul. The Greek word translated as contended means “to wrestle in company with.” The meaning can only be that the women publicly wrestled with words right beside Paul as they all defended the faith!
Women were pastors or ministers (Romans 16:1-2). Phoebe, a woman, was a “diakonon” of the church in Cenchrea. Here is another instance of male chauvinism. When translating this passage, the translators were well aware they were talking about a woman and translated it with the same bias shown to other women. The Greek word translated as “servant,” as applied to Phoebe, should be translated as “minister,” especially, a Christian teacher and pastor. In 22 other scriptures when used with men it was translated as “minister,” as in Col 1:25: “Of this church I was made a minister (diakonon) according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God.”, or “Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (diakonos) through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?” (I Cor. 3:5).
During the winter of 55-56 AD, Paul dictated the book of Romans to Tertius (Romans 16:22) in Corinth. He sent the epistle by Phoebe, who traveled over 800 miles to Rome. Paul begins Chapter 16 with an introduction of Phoebe, “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a diakonon of the church which is at Cenchrea.” Cenchrea was a port city near Corinth. For Phoebe to be traveling alone by ship this great distance carrying this letter from Paul proves that she was a woman of considerable faith, responsibility, and bravery. The rest of the passage reveals even more in the original Greek. “For she herself has also been a prostatis of many, and of myself as well.” Prostatis in Greek means a woman set over others, and means she is probably one of the Greek “leading” or “chief women” Paul mentions converting in Acts.17:4.
Phoebe was the most often mentioned, but not the only woman of authority in the early church, as in Col. 4:15: “Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.”
Nymphas had a church meeting in her home. Note that the male translators of the KJV wrote, Salute . . .Nymphas and the church which is in his house. Nymphas is a female name. A close study of this passage shows that verses 7-16 relate to specific churches and the comings and goings of church leaders and ministers. In verse 16 Paul writes, “After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.” The only leader that Paul calls by name in Laodicea is Nymphas. If Nymphas only supplied a meeting place for the church, then why didnt Paul also greet the man who was the minister?
Other women had churches in their homes, as illustrated in Acts 16:14, 15 and 40: Lydia had a church meeting in her home.
In 1 Cor 1:11, Paul refers to a the congregation there as Chloe’s people: “For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.”
In 1 Cor 16:15-16 Paul says, “Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints), that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.
Men is not in the original Greek. Paul praises a household of ministers headed by a person named Stephanas or Stephana, the feminine form of Stephen. She and her household were the first converts in Achaia, and now her household was devoted to the ministry. Paul urges the members to be subject to such people, or to subordinate themselves to this household, indicating that he is indeed talking of ministers with authority.
In 2 John 1:1 we find another woman minister leading a house church woman John addresses. The letter that became the book of 2 John was written to a female church leader during a time of great persecution for the church and church leadership, and is sent as a warning about “many deceivers” who are coming to her area. Due to the dangerous times, there is not a single name in the entire letter; neither her name nor the exact location of her house church. She is addressed in Greek as “Eklektee kuria”, the first word meaning “Chosen of God,” and the second word, “Kuria” is the feminine form of “Kuros,” which means “supreme in authority.” Men translated this as Elect Lady, which is like referring to a female senator only as a woman.
At the close of 2 John, John also mentions, “the children of your chosen (or elect) sister send their greetings,” which indicates there was a second woman chosen by God in an ecclesiastical sense.
Women were teachers of both men and women. Many of the previously mentioned women, including Priscilla, Junia, and Phoebe, were also teaching as part of being an evangelist, apostle or minister. How could a woman be “outstanding” as an apostle, praised as a minister, or noted as an evangelist and yet never teach a man? Would God put such a restriction on her?
No. God does not consider women to be less deserving of spiritual gifts than men. “For there is no partiality with God.” (Romans 2:11) And in Gal 3:28-29 we find, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus heirs according to the promise”.
Women were elders. “Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good.” (Titus 2:2-3)
Older women is from the Greek presbutis and means “female elder.” These female elders are to be “teaching what is good.” Though Paul talks next about training the young women, this passage does not limit women elders in any way to teaching only the women. Neither does it say that they must never teach in public as some believe. They are to be reverent, refrain from gossip, not have a drinking problem, and teach what is right.
Pauls recognition of women as full members of the Christian community is illustrated by his affectionate greetings to them, i.e., “the beloved Persis” (Rom.16:2); “Apphia our sister” (Philem.2); Rufus mother, “a mother to me, too” (Rom.16:13); and more importantly his references to them as fellow workers. Junia is called a fellow apostle. Phoebe (Rom.16:1) is described as a diakonos, a deacon or “minister” of the church at Cenchrea (1 Tim.3:8; Phil.1:1; Eph. 6:21; Col. 1:7; etc); and as Pauls “patroness” (Greek prostatis, leader or chief). Priscilla, Mary, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Euodia, and Syntyche are all described as fellow workers or laborers in the Gospel.
How many roles can women play in the church? The conclusion must be, Any role to which God calls them. Its not the decision of men, but the decision of the Holy Spirit as to who gets which gift.
yes there are specific scriptures that forbid women in the priesthood, I believe in Leviticus. That said, it may not have been uniformly applied. I recall the prophetess Deborah, who led Israel for a time.
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