Posted on 05/13/2016 1:18:26 PM PDT by GraceG
I have been reading about the periodical votes the Texas legislature makes about secession and pondered on it a while and thought a bit about it and came up with a few things.
1. We have a set of procedures for adding a state to the union in the Constitution.
2. We don't have any set of procedures if a majority of a state's population want to no longer be part of a union.
3. If the formation of the country was the voluntary gathering of states to form the union in the first place, then wouldn't forcing a state to stay against the majority of it's inhabitant's will essentially by tyranny?
4. If you added a process for a state to leave you would by default make that process be somewhat harder than if a territory wanted to become a state. Say for instance Saskatchewan was able to leave Canada peacefully, but then after a while wanted to become a state of the United States, if they wanted to leave later you would want an ever greater majority to on the vote to leave than the vote to join.
5. The civil was was caused by the illegal actions and military actions of the southern states ganging up, forming their own country illegally and then attacking the north. (though there is still some debate who fired first). If there had been a legal process and procedure for states to leave and then later form the confederacy, would the civil war had been averted if they had in that case "stuck to procedure" ?
6. Does a government body that has a process for admittance of smaller entities, but doesn't have any process for them leaving. Does that make that government a Tyranny by default? Does this make the United States a Tyranny by definition? What about the European Union? What about NATO, or the UN even?
Just some pondering about the very nature of "Unions" in the Nation-State sense.
Debt at $19.26 TRILLION and rising fast. This is not going to end well at all.
_______________________
That’s we happens when trillions are handed out to sh*thole countries who hate us.
(and Omuslim has just declared he’s ‘set aside’ $17,000 to care for each ‘immigrant’- that’s more than our poorest of the poor, our seniors, who helped make this country the greatest the world has ever known, make in a year from SS!!!
And don’t even start bashing SS. It is what it is.
Seniors worked hard all their lives and paid into it with the promise by the govmt that their money would be paid back to them to care for them when they grew old.
Maybe if the SS fund hadn’t been looted to pay for ‘immigrants’(criminal invaders) welfare,and doled out to sh*thole countries who hate us, it wouldn’t be in trouble.
Sometimes I think I wouldn’t mind if Texas did secede.
It is one of the few that is truly ‘like a whole other country’, as the slogan goes.
It is one of the few that could survive all on its own.
We have everything we need.
All we need is elect Trump/Newt, run out all the illegal messkins and all the muzzies. (and Libs who have flocked here from Ca and other states to take advantage of our freedoms and assets.
“And don’t even start bashing SS. It is what it is. Seniors worked hard all their lives and paid into it with the promise by the govmt that their money would be paid back to them to care for them when they grew old.”
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I hate to break it to you but the Social Security UNFUNDED LIABILITY is a whopping $15 TRILLION (in addition to the national debt).
All told our unfunded liabilities exceed $100 trillion, out of which your individual share is ‘only’ $853,000. The term “unsustainable” does not even begin to describe the true depths of our debt load.
“Why is there no set process for a state to leave the union?”
There is a process for calling a convention of the states and voting to abolish the federal government. That’s really close to states leaving the union.
Musings should include could a state be financially able to incur the debt that
would be imposed if it tried to leave the union? My guess is most if not all couldn’t
do that on their own.
I agree. If any could it would be Texas.
We do have a process. It is called a Constitutional Amendment Process. How did you miss that?
We call ourselves the UNITED states of america. The word UNITED means something to our founders and to us.
The average American hasn’t a CLUE how much of our tax money Obama has sent down Muslim sh*t holes while h slashes the military, CUTS MEDICARE...
TIP OF THE ICEBERG
BILLIONS FOR JIHAD! Obamas 2009 Supplemental Appropriations for Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Pandemic Flu was revised and passed by the full committee. It gives billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars to countries and entities that support Sharia law and/or harbor, hide and support those who want to destroy the U.S. and our allies. http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2009/05/1...
Read the summary from David Obeys office that was quietly released last week with nary a word from any media.
$3.6 BILLION matching the request, to expand and improve capabilities of the Afghan security forces
$400 MILLION, as requested, to build the counterinsurgency capabilities of the Pakistani security forces
AFGHANISTAN: $1.52 BILLION, $86 MILLION above the request WEST BANK AND GAZA: $665 MILLION in bilateral economic, humanitarian, and security assistance for the West Bank and Gaza
JORDAN: $250 million,$250 million above the request, including $100 million for economic and $150 million for security assistance
EGYPT $310 million above the request, including $50 million for economic assistance,$50 million for border security, and $260 million for security assistance
PAKISTAN,$591 million above the request
IRAQ:$968 MILLION,$336 million above the request
Oversight: $20 million,$13 million above the request, to expand oversight capacity of the State Department, USAID, and the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan to review programs in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq
Lebanon:$74 million
International Food Assistance:$500 MILLION $ 200 million above the request, for PL 480 international food assistance to alleviate suffering during the global economic crisis
REFUGEE ASSISTANCE:$343 MILLION,$50 million above the request, including humanitarian assistance for Gaza.
Funding for the UN Relief and Works Agency programs in the West Bank and Gaza is limited to $119 million (Note: Gaza = Hamas)
Disaster Assistance: $200 MILLION to avert famines and provide life-saving assistance during natural disasters and for internally displaced people around the world, including Somalia, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, the Middle East and South Asia
Department of Justice: $17 million, matching the request, for counter-terrorism activities and to provide training and assistance for the Iraqi criminal justice system
OBAMA GIVES YOUR TAX DOLLARS TO REBUILD MUSLIM MOSQUES AROUND THE WORLD! http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/... # Obama Invites 80,000 Muslim Immigrants Into the United States – Promises 100,000/Per Year for Next 5 Years Beginning to get it??
The lack of an exit plan was deliberate. This was brought up as an issue long BEFORE the Civil War. Should a state be able to secede, then it would be able to use the threat of secession as a means of political coercion; In turn, the state for whom secession would be most plausible would become more politically powerful, and the entire union would pretty much become a joke.
How would a state even secede, without annexing federal property? Not an idle question: this was the problem that so quickly led to the South attacking Northern troops. The North had pulled back its forces from most federal forts in Confederate territory, but it was hardly clear that there was any intent to vacate Ft. Sumter, rather than staking a claim. Should the Union simply have given the confederacy what was created by the states as a union? Would a farmer who held land in both Maryland and Virginia be expected to forfeit his land in one of those states? So long as both parties didn’t desire the split, it seems unimagiable that a fair outcome could result.
HOWEVER, there seems no reason that should CONGRESS want to CREATE an exit plan, it couldn’t. While there would be an unimaginable number of political and legal issues to address, legislation could certainly allow for a legutimate means to address them.
We had this thing called the civil war and the result was that nobody can leave.
Just do not pay the bill. You will not have to cancel.
[ We do have a process. It is called a Constitutional Amendment Process. How did you miss that? ]
I think I did mention that in an earlier reply, we could theoretically add an exit process as an amendment...
Once it was “the law” for Englishmen to be forcibly kidnapped from job and family,taken to a ship and forced to swear oaths of loyalty to the very bastards who engineered the kidnapping. Then those men were forced to fight,die, and be executed for disobeying or rebelling against the system.
Lincoln was a dictator who crapped on the Constitution which explains why he is obama’s favorite.
[ The lack of an exit plan was deliberate. This was brought up as an issue long BEFORE the Civil War. Should a state be able to secede, then it would be able to use the threat of secession as a means of political coercion; In turn, the state for whom secession would be most plausible would become more politically powerful, and the entire union would pretty much become a joke. ]
I would say the conditions or a state leaving should at least require 1/3 of the OTHER states agree that it is okay in their state legislatures for that state to leave, plus the super majority in the state itself. As well as a very large super majority of the citizens and state legislature vote to leave. That way any thought of an individual state using as blackmail can be vetoed easily by the rest by 2/3 majority veto of other states.
That would be a check on the possibility of “state secession blackmail”
I agree. If any could it would be Texas.
I would love for Texas to leave while taking the high road while leaving, even if Texas had to go into hock while leaving to settle accounts so to speak.
Nor did the Confederacy have a right to fire on a Federal Fort or issue letters of Marque against United States flagged ships.
Instead of pulling a lanyard on an artillery piece, maybe South Carolina should have sued in Federal Court for their secession. I would expect the Taney Supreme Court would have declared their right to secession as Constitutional.
There was a man who covered the whole subject of a states right to secede. Look up the Innaugural address that was given by the man who was elected president in 1860. The issue of secession has never been so thoroughly explored as in that short read.
Ask yourself this: suppose California upon hearing that Donald Trump had just been elected to the office of POTUS says, "we're out". Would that be ok?
Am reasonably sure that the average Japanese citizen view of United States actions in WWII were similar to that of those in the South after the Civil War. General Sherman’s view of war was that “War is the solution that our enemies have chosen, I say lets give them all they want.” That was the national view of how we needed to deal with the Japanese. The South started a war, they got all the real war that they could handle.
Because if you win the war, you can do anything you want. The Union was nothing but a bunch of thugs before the war and worse afterwards.
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