[BroJoeK]

Pelham: "Evidently your judgement on the merits of a secession/independence movement depend upon the success or failure of that movement.
Had the Founding Fathers been defeated they would be having the same abuse heaped on their heads that is now reserved for the Confederates."

But FRiend, great efforts have been made to explain to you the stark differences between our Founders' Revolution of 1776 and Fire Eaters secessions of 1860-61.
So let me summarize, as briefly as possible:

1. In 1776 Founders, especially Ben Franklin, had spent nearly 20 years in England trying to negotiate a better deal for American colonies.
   They wanted "no taxation without representation".

   By stark contrast Jefferson Davis' emissaries spent barely 8 weeks in Washington hoping to negotiate secession.

2. In 1776 for several years, Brits had acted aggressively towards Americans -- arbitrarily imposing taxes, denying requests for representation in parliament, revoking the Massachusetts charter, sending thousands of troops to occupy Boston, declaring a state of rebellion and war against Americans.

   By stark contrast, in 1860 the Southern Slave-Power had dominated Washington, DC politics almost continuously since the republic's founding in 1787.
   They were not only represented they were over-represented due to the Constitution's 3/5 of slaves rule.

3. In 1776 Founders listed over 30 real reasons for Declaring Independence, including:
   "He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."

   By stark contrast Fire Eaters' phony Reasons for Secession mentioned not one of our Founders' reasons, but instead only one actual concern: what might happen long term to their "domestic institution" of slavery.

4. In 1776 when Founders signed their Declaration of Independence, Brits had already declared and waged war against Americans for 18 months, fighting over two dozen battles & attacks, causing 3,500 American casualties, including over 800 Americans killed.

   By stark contrast, in December 1860 when Fire Eaters first wrote their Declarations of Secession, the country was at peace, and the only military actions were by secessionist seizing dozens of Federal properties -- forts, ships, arsenal & mints, etc.

5. By further contrast, by the time Union forces killed the first Confederate soldier directly in battle, on June 10, 1861, dozens of Union troops had already died, over 100 wounded and 500 captured as POWs.

Point is: in early 1861, the far better comparison is not of Confederates with Founders, but rather Confederates assaulting Fort Sumter with Brits assaulting Lexington & Concord, and the Union with our long-suffering Founders.

Battle of Lexington & Concord, April 19,1775:

Battle of Fort Sumter, April 12, 1861:

[Pelham]

"1. In 1776 Founders, especially Ben Franklin, had spent nearly 20 years in England trying to negotiate a better deal for American colonies."

"By stark contrast Jefferson Davis' emissaries spent barely 8 weeks in Washington hoping to negotiate secession."

Lincoln refused to negotiate secession or peace with the CSA at any time as I'm sure that you already know.

"2. In 1776 for several years, Brits had acted aggressively towards Americans "

By 1861 the North had been waging a guerilla war against the South for decades. Thomas Fleming's A Disease in the Public Mind being an excellent book on this forgotten subject.

The 1859 John Brown terror plot financed by seven prominent yankees being only the most famous incident of northern aggression.

They were not only represented they were over-represented due to the Constitution's 3/5 of slaves rule.

The southern Founders wanted slaves counted as full persons for purposes of Congress. Northern Founders didn't want them counted at all. 3/5 Rule was a compromise proposed by Wilson of Pennsylvania and Sherman of Connecticut.

3. In 1776 Founders listed over 30 real reasons for Declaring Independence...By stark contrast Fire Eaters' phony Reasons for Secession mentioned not one of our Founders' reasons, but instead only one actual concern: what might happen long term to their "domestic institution" of slavery.

Well the "phony reasons" involved decades of thinly disguised warfare coming out of the north. The Pottawatomie Massacre, the Harper's Ferry Raid and other such incidents. Again the Fleming book is a good source for the decades long northern hate-mongering campaign against the South, much of which had nothing to do with slavery.