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To: PeaRidge

Before I start on this, I would like to say that this thread has diverted from its original subject. That original subject was whether or not the Soldiers and members of the Confederate government committed treason as defined in Article III Section 3 of the US Constitution, which states “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.” I contend they did, based on the whole “levying War” thing. It appears that we have morphed this thread into “who shot first”. That’s fine, and I can certainly comment on this, but I didn’t want to lose the original thrust of this thread.

I found this to be very interesting reading. I commend no lu chan is for his solid research. If he excerpted this from another document I would love to read it. I especially liked the time line. I think it’s very important to determine what happened first. So, let’s add to the time line shown by no lu chan.

December 20, 1860 – South Carolina declares it’s secession from the Union
January 9, 1861 – Star of the West was fired upon while attempting to bring supplies to Fort Sumter

So, with those dates established, let’s get to the post by Pea Ridge. I kind of take offense at the editorial comment “Lincoln got busy initiating war”. The reason is because this was dated March 29, 1861. Please note that this was two and a half months AFTER the Star of India was fired on.

The article by Pea Ridge makes great pains to show the preparations made by the US Army and the US Navy to reinforce Forts Sumter and Pickens, and the military force ready to support this reinforcement. I would contend that, based on the events of January 9, when the Star of India was shot at, these were only prudent actions. They were determined to reinforce these US Army forts, and were prepared to fight to do it. The results were inevitable.

Really, the whole “who shot first” thing is somewhat unimportant. The War really started when South Carolina attempted to secede back on December 20. Everything else rolled downhill from there. The only way war would have been avoided is if the US did not contest this attempted secession, and that wasn’t going to happen. I did say that the whole “who shot first” was somewhat unimportant. That is true in the grand scheme of things (the war was probably going to happen anyway, after South Carolina’s attempted secession). There is an area where the question of “who shot first” was vitally important, though. That was in the realm of public opinion in the Northern States. As a result of the Confederacy shooting first, the Northern public was outraged, and the response to Lincoln’s call for volunteers was overwhelming.
.
So, let’s ask, and answer, a few questions:
• Did the Confederacy (or at least Citadel cadets operating under the auspices of the South Carolina government) initiate hostilities first by firing on the Star of India on January 9, 1861? YES
• Did the US Army and Navy prepare to reinforce Forts Sumter and Pickens, and were they prepared to use force to do this? – YES.
• Did Confederate forces fire on those reinforcing units, and initiate the first full scale combat of the Civil War? - YES
• Did this play directly into Lincoln’s hand and allow him to show the Confederates as the ones who fired first, and give the US the moral high ground in Northern and European public opinion? - YES


515 posted on 07/27/2015 6:18:23 PM PDT by Team Cuda
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To: Team Cuda

The status of Fort Sumter in early 1861 was similar to that of several British forts on US territory after the Revolutionary War.
Those forts were manned, resupplied and reinforced at will by the Brits, some for 30+ years.
Their final status was settled at Ghent in 1814.

Fort Sumter was also similar to the US base in Guantanamo Cuba, in that the Communists don’t recognize our right to be there, and demand we leave.
Still the US government continues to man, resupply and reinforce Gitmo at will.
These US actions are certainly not acts of war against Cuba, but a Cuban assault on Gitmo certainly would be an act of war against the US.

Just as, for example, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was an act of war, so also the Confederate assault on Union troops in Fort Sumter was certainly an act of war.

And least there be any doubt of Confederate intentions, three weeks later, on May 6, 1861, the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States, simultaneously sending military aid to pro-Confederates in the Union state of Missouri.


526 posted on 07/28/2015 7:02:54 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: Team Cuda

Team Cuda: “The only way war would have been avoided is if the US did not contest this attempted secession, and that wasn’t going to happen.”

Sorry, I missed this...

The US certainly DID NOT militarily contest Deep South declarations of secession, or its forming a new Confederacy.
Indeed, Democrat President Buchanan did nothing more than express his opinion that such secessions were unlawful.
And he attempted to resupply US troops in Fort Sumter.

The mitary contest only began because the Confederacy first provoked war, then started war (at Fort Sumter), then formally declared war on the United States (May 6, 1861), while sending military aid to pro-Confederates in the Union state of Missouri.

Remember, in his First Inaugural (March 4, 1861), Lincoln told Confederates they could not have a war unless they themselves started it.
And of course, Jefferson Davis was happy to oblige.


529 posted on 07/28/2015 7:18:26 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: Team Cuda
"There is an area where the question of “who shot first” was vitally important, though.

If one thinks that firing a first shot constitutes blame for a war, then they are wrong.  The United States government affixed the official beginning of the war with Lincoln's call of 75,000 troops and the blockade decree.

However, if one still wants to affix the beginning on the first to fire, then you have to go back to January 8, 1861 when Federal troops first fired on Florida state militia at Ft. Barrancas, Pensacola Bay, Florida.

And if that does not suit the issue, one can go back to John Brown's raid, funded by Northern interests.  Or go back to Kansas and Missouri where skirmishes predated all of this.

See how silly that is.

You would be right to say that Confederate firing on Ft. Sumter was the first major skirmish.  But then you have to realize that the revenue cutter, Harriet Lane, had fired the first shot several hours before the Confederate batteries began shelling.

So, again, where does that take you?

Your comment: "I think it’s very important to determine what happened first. So, let’s add to the time line shown by no lu chan.

December 20, 1860 – South Carolina declares it’s secession from the Union

January 8, 1861 - Federal Troops in the area of Ft. Barrancas fired on Florida militia.

January 9, 1861 – Star of the West was fired upon while attempting to bring supplies to Fort Sumter.

540 posted on 07/28/2015 11:05:58 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: Team Cuda
I think you asked about the condition of the US Treasury several posts back. I had mentioned that the Treasury was being refused overseas loans at the regular rates just before the war.

This may be of interest to you, although long.

“The exhausted condition of the Treasury” on the eve of the Civil War.
Civil War History - June 1, 2009
Jane Flaherty
________________________________________
The Civil War fiscal crisis began before April 12, 1861. The U.S. Treasury tottered in a state of “utmost confusion” months before Edmund Ruffin shot at the troops holed up in Fort Sumter. Traditionally the “dynamic center” of government, the Treasury now faced “being placed before the world in the aspect of a mendicant.” The department's secretary, John A. Dix, notified Congress on February 11, 1861 that “little more” than $500,000 remained in the central depository in Washington. Demands for $2 million “unanswered” requisitions had accumulated in the department, with $6 million more due to public creditors in early March. Dix predicted a $21.6 million shortfall by the end of the fiscal year. Staff in most executive departments could not draw their salaries that January. Members of Congress had gone unpaid since the start of the session the previous December. Worse yet, according to Dix, “The War and Navy departments have calls for large requisitions [that] have been delayed on account of the exhausted condition of the Treasury.”

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/civil_war_history/summary/v055/55.2.flaherty.html

623 posted on 07/30/2015 12:50:42 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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