Posted on 07/20/2015 4:43:20 PM PDT by Citizen Zed
Freep this poll...
Oooooooh. Nailed it!
Between early 1977 and late 1979 before we went into overhaul we lost quite a few planes and some pilots. One Tomcat came in low and the landing gear popped the Round down snapping it off. SECNAV and CNO were on the Bridge that night. The pilot and second seater rode it off the angle then jetisoned. Lost plane but they were OK. A S-3 came in high and caught number 4 {forward} wire. They went off the angle with hook still attached to the cable and initiated jetison. One went into the hull of the ship the other across the water no survivors but bodies recovered. One ABH was a Chalker in a routine re-spot of a Tomcat. He got ran over and died on sight. We had A-6's {I can't remember the variant} launching and with a couple miles dropping like bricks. That triggered a stand down of the plane for a while. One crew I think didn't get out. Those are only the ones I can remember.
I worked in AC&R the ships air conditioning and refrigeration shop. What I said about the walk in cooler being used for bodies is true. One of us stood watch to make certain proper temps were maintained and no unauthorized entry. It didn't matter if it was accidental or natural causes. We had a Chief die in his rack.
For what it's worth I saw 1970's pilots on Liberty. Lots of them. I was also T.A.D. as a Boat Snipe on Boat Crew and worked the Offiers boats or PB's. I saw one in Genoa try to bring a pig back to the ship. I've seen pilots who could not read a navigation chart we had and got assigned our boat officer for night runs. His orders grounded our boat. Hey we told him {respectfully} it was the wrong way. We'd been making runs all day to the beach, were experienced, and knew our, buoys, markers, and landmarks on the beach. He didn't. Rowdy? Oh yeah the pilots could be that. LOL. We had a ships company 1st LT who was an obnoxious jerk as well he was a LTCDR.
Irrelevant; he hasn't but you responded to your delusions of him.
I don't care what anyone else said; I was responding yo your irrationality: attacking a claim that he never made.
war hero
congressional zero
I never claimed that Trump had ever claimed to be a hero.
Especially since, from Admiral Stockdale (the senior officer in charge present at Hanoi Hilton) ORDERED all the men there not to accept early release. “We all go together”.
So, no, McCain nor anyone else following orders in this instance were heroes. There is a list of Vietnam POWs who were awarded the Medal of Honor— and THEY ARE heroes.
Simply put- heroes are recognized.
Gen. Smedley Butler, Marines. This quote has been used by the Marxists to discredit America’s overseas fighting, esp. in Latin America (which the quote was actually aimed at).
Since I’m not that old, I never heard Butler speak in person. However, I don’t know what caused his change in view of the military.
However, I did work with one of TR’s granddaughters. He would have been proud of her, an All-American, pro-America journalist, blacklisted by her “betters” in the family.
I also met and talked with Adm. John McCain (CINCOMPAC) during Vietnam. He was a man of character and determination.
Son John was a disappointment to many of his fellow POWS (I knew a number of them.
Not saying that any of these fellows said anything bad about McCain. Just listing those who I talked to about POW/MIA issues as I had testified before congress on them: Mike Benge (former USMC, AID); Col. Bud Day; Adm. Jeremiah Denton; AF Paul Galanti; civilian Larry Stark; Sgt. Harker; the wife of Pilot Dunn, shot down by the Red Chinese off of Hainan Island - alive in the water when Chicom boats were coming at him; others).
McCain did his job, just like so many other brave Americans. Let’s give him credit for that, unlike the faux-3 PH Kerry. However, he became a John Kerry in his political ambitions, which made him a threat to the national security. Kerry was a pure traitor, and still is.
McCain is just an embittered old man who sought the brass ring of the presidency and failed miserably.
I knew a senior POW in the Hilton era of McCain and outranked him. Shot down within months of each other actually. Back in 2008 there was a thread in here about retired senior Naval Officers who endorsed McCain. That POW's name was on the list. The POW would have known Stockdale as well. The man I knew was a no nonsense officer after his release as return to active duty who expected a high level of conduct. He was tortured, injured upon jetison and received minimal treatment. Whom to believe? A man I knew giving an endorsement? Or a political websites scuttlebutt?
I despise McCain politically and want him retired. But attacking his military service {which I'd say No Freeper was actually there to judge his POW actions} to destroy him politically is questionable. I'll take the endorsement of a man I trusted and would have been in the COC loop as a sounding of McCain's behavior in captivity as being at least average compared with fellow POWs.
While he was a victim, was he also a hero? These two may concepts can overlap but are not identical.
As a VN journalist and active in POW/MIA affairs, I heard many stories from many people. Different perspectives on an event or person? Most likely, but what was hinted at, but not openly spoken, also opens up possibilities that other stories “not told” could be true, too.
Have you ever seen the full story on the “Committee” of about 10 POWS who were accused, often with some serious evidence, of going beyond their torture experiences (at least for some), in collaborating with their Hanoi jailers?
Cavanaugh committed suicide out of shame, though it has been said that he was one of the least guilty offenders (in the opinions of their chargers). There was a Col. Miller and Bob Chenoweth, who were viewed as “turned”. Lots of animosity against Miller by senior POWS officers.
Only a group effort prevented the presentation of formal charges of “aiding the enemy” by a small group of tortured POWS. This is a know “fact”. However, the details have not been published (to my knowledge).
Chenoweth became a buddy of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden in their pro-Hanoi organization to cut-off aid to SVN known as the “Indochina Peace Campaign”. I personally saw him in this capacity.
As for today, I would never trust John McCain with anything that would seriously affect US national security. He’s gotten old, soft, and bitter, and is now attacking those who are standing up for America. Just read what he says about people who support security borders, support Trump (crazies), relations with Cuba, Iran, etc.
Maybe in 50 years, after we are all gone, someone will write a more definitive history of John McCain, hopefully with access to documentation, not just “stories”.
I do not expect it to be “pretty”.
OK so what did Stockdale think about McCain and do after release? http://www.historynet.com/vice-admiral-james-bond-stockdale-vietnam-war-hero-and-indomitable-spirit-at-the-hanoi-hilton.htm
And the endorsement thread I was looking for http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940027/posts
No—Not a war Hero.
And this thread has the list with the name of the POW I knew. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2103889/posts He was shot down a few months before McCain and at the time IIRC was one rank higher.
And the angle to all that that I think you are overlooking is that the society of Naval Admirals is not all that large. They all know and take care of each other. And especially so when family names need protecting!
No I believe if McCain’s behavior in The Hilton had been way out of bounds he would have never received an endorsement from the man I knew who was also a POW at that time and in the Chain of Command loop inside Hilton. I recognize a few other names as well though. All names I recognize were carrier officers and pilots.
I served on an remote island. We had several people die. They were kept in the meat cooler until a plane could come pick them up. One time it was a week.
There was a post here on FR that said McCain really didn’t have a choice about leaving early. The highest ranking officer at the POW camp told the prisoners that they would all leave together. One person did go early. He had the task of memorizing the names and identification of all aviators held at the camp so he could report their whereabouts. McCain really had no choice.
As a senator McCain has done nothing for veterans. He betrayed the MIA’s who we left behind in Vietnam.
Yeah it sounds morbid I know but it’s all you can do.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.