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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis; rockrr; x
DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "I suppose the King also didn't think the patriots had any right to seize forts and arsenals belonging to the crown either."

But our Founders never seized any British forts & arsenals before the Brits had both formally declared war and launched military attacks on Americans.
So everything our Founders did was in response to British aggression.

But with Confederates, it was the reverse -- Confederates seized US property, Confederates launched military assaults, Confederates formally declared war, all before any military actions by the United States.

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "Sorry to break it to you, but calling out the troops to attack is the same thing as declaring war.
If war wasn't what he was pursing, then why did he call for troops?"

Then why did Jefferson Davis first call up 100,000 Confederate troops, on March 6, two days after Lincoln's inauguration?
Was that Davis' "declaration of war" on the United States?

I say "no", because calling up troops is not a declaration of war, and neither is declaring a naval blockade.
Yes, both are often associated with wars, but they are not in themselves "acts of war" and do not always lead to war.

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "Yes, and all regions controlled by the Union were exempted in the proclamation. Those slaves remained slaves."

Again you misunderstand, even though it's been explained to you clearly, more than once.

By law, the US president could not declare any slaves "free" in any state, territory or region deemed loyal to the United States.
But also by law, the US military could declare enemy "property" to be "contraband" and seize it for military use.
And as Commander in Chief of the armed forces, President Lincoln could declare such "contraband property" to be free human beings, and so he did.

So in 1862 that emancipation proclamation effected only perhaps 20,000 to 50,000 slaves, but by war's end, with Union army control of most of the Confederacy, it freed millions.

So tell us precisely: what part of that do you not yet "get"?

120 posted on 02/08/2015 4:25:36 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective.)
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To: BroJoeK
Of course not because the colonies didn't declare independence until after Britain declared war, so until then they just contented themselves with seizing and dumping tea.

Of course the Confederate government called for troops. It was the part of the duty of the Confederate congress (and any new country really) to provide an army for the public defense. The Confederate Constitution reads pretty much like the United States Constitution on this. It is the duty of Congress to "provide for the common Defense", to"To raise and support Armies," and to "provide and maintain a Navy." Lincoln's call for troops, on the other hand was "in order to suppress" the will of the sovereign States.

The South had the right to seize all the Federal forts in its property that it wanted to. After all, The states joined the union voluntarily and they could leave the same way. And all the rights they had delegated to the Federal government they rescinded in their secession. Included in this rescinding of rights was the right of the Federal government to place federal forts on state land. The Federal government was no longer their government and had no business in having forts in a foreign country.

Yes, it may have supposedly "freed" some during the war, but Lincoln himself was concerned that it would be found to be invalid after the war. After the war the status of these "freed" slaves was uncertain, since the South had rejoined the Union and Lincoln had had no Constitutional or legal right to free anybody. That is why the 13th amendment was needed. After the War was over the South ratified this amendment with pretty much no fuss. But when the North Tried to push the Fourteenth amendment through, the South kicked up a big fuss because the Fourteenth amendment deals with serious Constitutional issues. Which raises the question....If the war was as much about slavery as people like to paint it, then why did the South easily and quickly pass the 13th amendment, but dig their heels in on the one that changed the nature of the Constitution? The North eventually forced the passage of the 14th amendment by kicking the South back out of the union and declaring them to be conquered territories, and stated that they could only re-enter the union if they ratified the 14th amendment. Sounds like coercion to me. Also, do the votes of "conquered territories" count towards ratification? By the war, this kind of activity shows what we really lost in the war. The States lost their sovereign rights reserved in the 10th amendment, the Federal government became supreme. It used to be that the States stood between the Federal government and the people, but now the people are naked before the might of the federal government.

121 posted on 02/09/2015 3:48:19 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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