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To: microgood
microgood: "...when I was in college and a philosophy major, this very topic was used in our textbooks as a classical example of what circular reasoning is...
Joel Feinberg and Russ Shafer-Landau note that "using the scientific method to judge the scientific method is circular reasoning". - which is exactly what you are doing."

I also studied a bit of philosophy, certainly enough to learn there are limits to what reason, logic or science can tell us.
Science itself is a very limited, restricted enterprise -- restricted to those questions which can be addressed by its basic assumptions, such as "naturalism" and "uniformitarianism".
So science makes no claims to "higher truth", metaphysics or super-natural understandings.
Instead, science is all about, and only about "what works", physically, materially, naturally.

Indeed, just the other day I read a scientist discussing the scientific terms "hypothesis", "theory" and "law" and suggesting those words would be more accurately understood if we replaced them with the term "pattern", since that in essence is what they all mean -- patterns detected in nature.

Bottom line: if you are looking for "definitive truth" or even just "definitive proof", then you've come to the wrong place, you won't find them in science.
So instead you must go to philosophy or theology for "truth" and to law for "proof", not science.

The only things science can offer you for certain -- yes, a thin gruel spiritually -- is that whatever it says works does indeed work, until a better explanation (a more accurate pattern) can be discovered.

So what your philosopher-friends above are telling you is just that there is a realm of understanding outside & higher than the realm of science, and from the heights of that philosophical realm they feel entitled to pass judgment on lowly science.
And of course, they are correct.
So lowly science will continue to humbly do what it's intended to do -- keep our lights on, keep our homes warm, put food on our tables, clothes on our backs, move us from point A to point B, keep us healthy, solve our natural mysteries, and let us communicate at light speeds, etc..

Yes, it's often a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it...

37 posted on 12/24/2014 5:32:34 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective.)
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To: BroJoeK
So what your philosopher-friends above are telling you is just that there is a realm of understanding outside & higher than the realm of science, and from the heights of that philosophical realm they feel entitled to pass judgment on lowly science. And of course, they are correct. So lowly science will continue to humbly do what it's intended to do -- keep our lights on, keep our homes warm, put food on our tables, clothes on our backs, move us from point A to point B, keep us healthy, solve our natural mysteries, and let us communicate at light speeds, etc..

I get this every time.

The bottom line is that theories like Evolution and the Big Bang are historical sciences, trying to determine what happened milllions of years ago.

And then you will say science is science and all disciplines need to be created equally.

But Biology and Physics scientists that need to test their hypothesis can do it daily and forever because their testable theorems exist in real life.

Historial sciences like Evolution and the Big Bang Theory operate in a totally different realm. You cannot pickyback historical science theorems on the amazing acheivements of science that can directly demonstrate their theories on a daily basis in all our lives.

Outside of Physics and Biology, the rest of the sciences operate in a different level of believability.
40 posted on 12/24/2014 6:16:31 PM PST by microgood
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