[alexander_busek]

'm just curious who is ashamed of the Stars and Bars. I was born and raised in the south and this flag always gave me comfort and identity. I slept with it over my bed during my youth. What about you?

The "States' Rights" issue was a legitimate Constitutional issue, but (in my estimation) was overshadowed by the more-fundamental issue of Slavery, a morally repugnant institution whose dimensions trumped the Constitution. I am saying that just to clarify where I stand with regards to the "legality" vs. "morality" of the Succession.

With regards to Confederate flags: Apart from the legal and moral aspects of the issue: How can one be proud of and find "comfort" and "identity" in the flag of a "Failed State," of a nation which existed for only four years, during a time of constant warfare, and which was then dissolved?

Regards,

[RegulatorCountry]

It apparently seems to be foreign to you, so no doubt you can’t understand, but feeling that slavery trumps the constitution does not give you the moral high ground. You’re in the same boat as the Confederacy, like it or not.

[varina davis]

I disagree that the Confederacy was a “failed state.” there was never a recorded formal surrender of the Confederate States of America. And no symbols and flags would have endured this long unless they symbolized enduring beliefs.

My g-great grandfather was a CSA soldier, 54th Georgia, Co. K Army of Tennessee, along with many other ancestral relatives. None had slaves and worked the cotton fields and sugar cane themselves in southeast Georgia.

The issue for most southerners was states rights under the constitution and that is still an issue with many in Dixie. Deo Vindici

[cva66snipe]

The north despite the history books written for schools to make Lincoln look like a saint. He and the northern senators and congressmen was no more morally right about slavery than the south. Good Ole Honest Abe was a segregationist and his plan was to ship all blacks back home after the war. IOW expel them from the nation.

Northern labor markets weren't by any means much less than slavery either. Blacks got jobs white man would not do at pay a white man would not accept. Then there was a matter of the Union Army itself even all the way through WW2 actually. Shedding blood is shedding blood and war is war. If you have a man fighting for your cause would you not allow him among your ranks even though his skin is brown? BTW it was USCT who built the most remote and roughest portions of the Trans Alaska highway in WW2 and they had far less equipment, food, shelter, you name it.

USCT United States Colored Troops, their bodies lie in segregated graves in national cemeteries in both the north and the south. Actually Confederates are also buried there but the Confederate whie is among Union white vets. I know of what I say because I once worked at one.

Slavery wasn't the issue of The Civil War it was made the issue by politicians but the real war was plain and simple a trade war. A hand full of men in the nation wanted control of all trade including southern trade. They built their factories and fortunes on the backs of slaves themselves black and white alike then when it became a liability and a means to control upcoming southern industry they used slavery abolition as a tool.

Very honorable men on both sides died but slavery continued in this nation well into the early 1960's in some places. Who was the master? One of the largest was coal companies who built towns back in the boonies and owned all the land including the houses they rented to miners plus they owned the store. Currency was script or tokens redeemable at the company store. That was often also the pay. The income was never enough to satisfy the debt owed the store aka the company. Laws were as such the debt holder could hunt you down and have you jailed.

Apprenticeships also existed and involved white parents more or less turning a child over to a company to {cough cough} teach them a skill. It was a contracted obligation and escaping by running away was breech of it.

Slavery would have likely ended sooner in all regions of the nation and without blood shed had it been allowed to exist even twenty - thirty more years. Technology would have resolved it just as technology ended the mining stores hold. The mining issue was in both north and south of the Mason/Dixon line and even small wars were fought over it years afterward up to the early 1900's.

The history books portrayed slave owners as all of them beat slaves etc. Actually many did not it would be counterproductive. Injured slaves can't work. Beating a horse or mules results in mayhem as well. But a few who did do as such became the history because it served the purpose of justifying the war in history books. Many slaves in the south returned the the farms, factories, & plantations, they worked at as slaves before the war. No Jobs for anyone.

Slavery carries a huge moral responsibility to the owner Biblically really more so than the slave.

The Generals who fought the war mended friendships afterward. Many were academy grads. Constitution and Founders Intent wise I think CSA was far closer to what was first envisioned by the founding fathers than what followed in the US Government afterward.

I've seen 48 of the 50 states & I've seen about eight different nations. The south is home.

[RebelTex]

"How can one be proud of and find "comfort" and "identity" in the flag of a "Failed State," of a nation which existed for only four years, during a time of constant warfare, and which was then dissolved?"

The same way Texans can be proud of a flag with a hand drawn cannon and the moto "Come and Take It". Molon Labe, "come and take it", is a classical expression of defiance in the face of overwhelming odds, reportedly spoken by Sparta's King Leonidas I in response to the Persian army's demand that the Greeks surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. After fighting valiantly for 3 days, the greatly outnumbered Greeks ultimately lost.

"Remember the Alamo" is another classical expression of defiance and was the Battle Cry that Texians shouted as they attacked and defeated Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto. Now, Texans are proud of that Battle Cry, but Mexicans view it as an insult.

The Stars and Bars, the Confederate Battle Flag, and various other Confederate flags all symbolized "States Rights" and a Federalist rather than Centralized government. Slavery was not a Casus Belli of the War of Northern Agression. Economics was the Casus Belli of the War - the South was rich (agriculture) and gaining power while the North was losing influence and money. In 1863, after almost 3 years of fighting, Lincoln introduced the slavery issue as a much needed recruitment and fund raising tool to shift the tide of the war back to the North (and which worked only too well).

So it is easy for us Southerners (and yes that includes Texas) to be proud of our heritage and Confederate flags. After all, most all Southerners and even FReepers want limited Federal government and increased States Rights and Individual Liberty - the same goals for which the Confederacy was formed.

FReegards,

RebelTex