Posted on 07/06/2014 2:10:26 PM PDT by Ben Mugged
OK, here is my rant about tipping. Not the kind where folks in Frisco are standing little cars on end or the practice of pushing sleeping cows over but the kind that takes place in restaurants.
I worked in food service and as a bartender for many years while in the Air Force. When I started out the business would pay me to serve the customers. If my service was good, the customers would reward me with a gratuity. Over time the businesses noticed their servers were making a lot of money in tips so they reduced their pay to minimum wage. The difference between that and what you should have been paid was made up by tipping. In other words the burden of paying the server moved from the business to the customer. Instead of working for the business, servers were now working for the customer.
It is still that way today with some businesses adding the "gratuity" to the bill automatically. Folks it is no longer a "gratuity" if it is mandatory and the only way the server gets paid. Let's call it what it is, a service fee.
Here's an idea: Don't go to these places. End of problem. I'm a big fan of "eat what you kill" pubs and restaurants where waitstaff does not split their tips with there co-workers. I tipp well -- very well - but I tip a lot less when I know my tip is going to someone I never saw at my table.
The way you describe it IS the way it used to be. Not now...... at least not at many restaurants.
I agree. Argument strengthens my belief and makes my position stronger. I encourage folks to disagree with me and to rationalize their opinion. I am discouraged to see discourse devolve into name calling. I usually get out of the thread at that point.
First of all, if the staff stayed rather than seeking employment elsewhere, what gripe does anybody have? None.
Second, ALL the money ALWAYS comes 100% from the customer.
Don’t miss my original point. I have no problem with paying for a meal including a service charge. Just don’t try to tell me it is a “gratuity” when it’s not. The business should tell the truth. It is a “service charge” and is included in the overall price of the meal and is how the business pays the server.
You make $2.13 an hour and have to split your tips with Paco the busboy, Juan the sous chef, and Luis the dishwasher, as well as the bitch barmaid that that didn’t restock the bar after her shift because she doesn’t have to because she is banging the shift manager.
That whole lifestyle... makes me glad I eat at home.
You do know the living wage thingy is socialistic, right? May I argue for NO minimum wage, or "living wage," so each can be paid wages according to their contribution to the business? Someone has to subsidize the "living wage" recipient. It would be much more honest to speak the truth about this than use all kinds of progressive double-speak. If you cannot live on what you earn, change jobs. Most people do as a natural event, why does the government have to get involved in what is basically and agreement between two people, an employer who pays for work and the employee who works for pay.
That would be the smart thing to do, but being stupid I keep thinking “hey, if I just explained it better, the person would completely change their reaction”. :-)
When I was younger, my wife and I had a restaurant we would go to with two friends after church on Sunday. The friends had introduced us to the eatery, and were already friends with many of the waitstaff.
We were lavished with special treatment, and we tipped well. No idea which came first, the chicken or the egg, but it was a wonderful experience.
And I couldn’t tell you how much the base pay was for those waiters and waitresses, but I hope they were well-paid, because they were great.
Now, how is the amount of money they are paid as base salary going to make your dining experience less of an experience? DO you actually WISH that those people giving you great service get paid less? Or are you afraid that if they were paid more, they wouldn’t give you good service because they would figure “hey, we already have enough money, so let’s just piss off the customer”?
If you think I opposed tipping, you got me confused with some other person on the thread (assuming you must have read SOME comment to that affect). I’ve always loved tipping, and tipping well, and I never suggested it change.
My comment regarded the trend toward paying a wait staff less and less in salary, and then pressuring the customers with “required” 20% tips on bills, especially in areas where the owner knows their is a serious problem with certain customers never leaving a tip.
But anyway, I can’t relate any of my issues to your fear of losing your experience.
On the other hand, if I WAS a person who didn’t like the tipping thing, and I was loudly telling the places I ate that, and suggesting they adopt a different system — isn’t that what the free market is about, businesses hearing what customers want, weighing the differing desires, and then each business choosing which they want to cater to?
Is it bad for some customers to express their desires, even if it does risk screwing it up for you? Maybe it will turn out that a lot more customers like it the other way, and you are in the minority.
But seriously, I wouldn’t worry about it — I don’t see it changing.
Well OK. I think a college graduate probably is getting a slightly better opportunity than a freshman in high school.
I guess I could have included that information — I always think of the kids as the little kids, even though they are now all grown up and out working real jobs.
“Would you want to be a plumber if the way you got paid was that you showed up, did your best, and the customer paid you whatever they felt like?”
One difference between the quality of service of a waiter, and a plumber. If the plumber says they fixed the leaky sink, and you still have water flooding the kitchen, you won’t pay the lousy plumber.
If your waiter is getting paid no matter how good or bad their service was, what recourse do you have? If you ate the food, you must pay.
Do you not see how a system of tips based on the quality of the service of waiting on you and bringing you food will be the incentive for good service?
Yes, which is why I like tipping.
Do you understand the unfairness of leaving the vast amount of compensation for waitstaff to the goodwill of the customer? If so, why is it absurd to argue that the base pay of waitstaff should be reasonable for the actual work they do?
If I’m in McDonalds, and I sit down to eat the food, and it is prepared horribly, I return it and get my money back. I didn’t need the “tipping culture” to get what I paid for. Even in a restaurant where there is tipping, if the FOOD is bad, I complain to the owner and get my meal refunded, and then I tip the waitstaff, because they did their job.
I think some people are having trouble distinguishing between the argument of getting rid of tipping, and my argument which is that our modern culture of incivility now includes a large population that won’t tip and makes waitstaff’s life miserable, and the downward spiral of such a restaurant may require a higher base pay for the waitstaff.
I know the higher base pay will get passed on to the customers, but that might drive off the unsavory crowd of complaining non-tippers, and make the whole thing work better.
BTW, if a waiter did such a bad job that I would THINK to not tip at all, I’d probably tell them they were lousy, and if they responded poorly, I’d go to the owner and tell them.
Not tipping would make ME feel better, but letting the owner know a waitstaff is screwing with his business seems more helpful.
My favorite thing is to use a coupon for dinner, and then add the coupon value to my tip if the waitstaff was pleasant.
and finally, if the service is lousy, but the food was great, I still tip, since in general the tips are shared with the cooks, and it isn’t the cook’s fault that a particular waiter sucks. Again, that’s where telling the owner makes it better for all.
What is odd (remembering that I like tipping) is that people seems extremely adamant about how great tipping is, and yet you rarely see it in other fields where, if it is so great, you’d think it would be — like the plumber, where it is just the one guy, and so it’s easy to know who you are praising or damning with your tip.
So, a drywall guy comes, I get references, we bargain on time and price, and we sign a contract. But with waitstaff, they work totally in the dark as to whether they will be paid at all, or if so, how much. It may work, but I don’t see where this is the shining example of pure capitalism.
I went to a mens breakfast gathering at Dennys and the waitress added the tip to the ticket.
Has this become the norm?
It ticked me off. I threw a 10$ bill and told the cashier that I did not appreciate that practice. It was actually a few cents short.
I told her she should call the cops or pay it and walked out. Nobody stopped me.
I typically tip 20% for polite attentive service.
Your McDonald’s analogy is flawed, because you’re not being waited on at the table at McD’s—it’s self service.
The plumber, or drywall contractor you hire isn’t paid (or should not be paid) until you inspect and are satisfied with their work, also, their work is guaranteed and warranted. A waiter’s service isn’t guaranteed.
To increase the odds of getting good service from the wait staff is to tip. If a waiter or waitress is paid whether they provide good service or lousy service, where is the incentive for good service. Good service translates to higher tips.
Your ‘solution’ is to increase prices at the restaurant. Not acceptable, sorry.
If your total price of dinner and tip is the same, why is it unacceptable?
McDonalds is NOT self-service. Unless you are going in the back and cooking your own food and packaging it and ringing it up, someone is serving you, and they can get it wrong.
What makes you give “good service” to your employer? Does he give you tips when you provide good service, or are you evaluated and given a salary?
Tips are in fact an excellent way to handle the “good service” question, as opposed to surveys of customers to find out which waiters are good and which are bad.
Except: how do you keep from getting bad service? If the employer is just paying $2.15 an hour, and each waiter is then compensated for good service with bigger tips, doesn’t that mean a bad waiter will get paid less, but will remain employed?
How does the employer find out that a waiter needs to be replaced? We still need feedback to the owner for bad service. Unless the owner gets to see the tips from each waiter, only then we don’t know if bad tips mean bad service, or bad customers.
And in restaurants with tipping, I don’t pay until all the work is done, and I have inspected the work. Meaning I got to look at the food, the cleanliness, and the service. I ate the food, and know if it tasted OK or not. I know if it was prepared properly or not.
And I pay after that. And if the food was bad, I send it back and get it corrected, and if it isn’t corrected I refuse to pay for the part that was bad. So in what way is this different from the plumber? Yes, food does not have a warranty, but neither does the woman who washes the windows. If I get food poisoning from a restaurant, I can go back and sue them for it, so that is kind of like a warranty.
Do you tip the guy that does your oil change?
“McDonalds is NOT self-service. Unless you are going in the back and cooking your own food and packaging it and ringing it up, someone is serving you, and they can get it wrong.”
McDonald’s is self-service. You seem to be ignorant of the definition of self-serve restaurants, my Freeper friend.
You are not being waited on at the table at McDonald’s. Like any self-serve cafeteria, where you pick your own food out at the counter, and pay for it, and carry it to the table. I’m sure you actually do know the meaning of and difference between self-serve and waiter service.
“What makes you give “good service” to your employer? Does he give you tips when you provide good service, or are you evaluated and given a salary?”
This has zero to do with the concept of wait staff at a restaurant.
“how do you keep from getting bad service? If the employer is just paying $2.15 an hour, and each waiter is then compensated for good service with bigger tips, doesn’t that mean a bad waiter will get paid less, but will remain employed?”
A bad server will not make the income that a good server will. If the bad server is sound of mind, they just may make the connection between providing good service and larger tips—which is the very crux of this matter.
The rest of your post is filled with irrelevant ramblings.
I have tipped the guy doing my oil change, perhaps he has gone over and above the job, and I want to show my appreciation—with the full knowledge that that is not expected but certainly appreciated.
If, however, I come to find that the oil change guy did such a poor job that my engine is damaged, or he faked me out by charging me for a filter that wasn’t replaced, I can hold the shop responsible.
If a lousy waiter does something to ruin my dinner, my dinner stays ruined, whether I have to pay for it or not.
The system in place where wait staff earns the bulk of theor income from tips means that good service from wait staff benefits them, you, and the restaurant owner.
I am sorry that that system displeases you.
I should be clearer that your “it’s self-service” was a faulty argument to prove your point that they were not comparable. I then explained that it isn’t actually SELF-SERVICE, no matter what you call it. They simply don’t walk to your table.
Seriously. You walk into a sit-down restaurant, the guy comes to your table, takes your order, walks away, comes back later and gives you your food. In McDonalds, you walk up to the counter, the guy takes your order, walks away, comes back and gives you your food. Heck, if you had a seat at a counter, the only difference would be that you’d wait until the end of your meal to pay, and leave a tip.
So while you beg the question with your “it’s self-service vs wait-service”, I am ARGUING the question, asking what is so different that you get good service at McDonalds without a tip, but are afraid you’ll get lousy service if there is a seat at the counter when you order.
I’m open to an explanation, as I don’t tend to go to restaurants where I am in danger of getting lousy service from a waiter or waitress, because I tend to go places where the wait-staff is paid well enough that they are happy at their jobs and aren’t constantly pissed off at getting ripped off by the customers who don’t tip.
And then they know I’ll do a great tip, so they take extra-nice care of me, if it happens to be a restaurant I frequent. Otherwise, the tip is only good for someone else, as I can’t possibly have effected how I was treated by a tip I give after the entire service is done.
My problem isn’t with tipping, it is with the current class of customer who doesn’t tip, which has greatly impacted the ability of a tip to provide better service — a poorly-paid waiter who has a 50/50 chance of getting any tip at all is hardly well-motivated to provide good service.
That was the point of this thread, after all — the problem with customers getting so bad at tipping that restaurants are just throwing the tip onto the bill. This also means the wait-staff isn’t motivated by the tip, since it is ON THE BILL and they know exactly what it is going to be (realizing you can skip the tip even if it is on the bill, but most people don’t know that).
Your rejection of my second argument has no substance. Waving a hand and claiming “it is different’ is not an argument, it is again assuming the conclusion without doing the work of making a point.
If you are going to argue that a waiter can’t be expected to give good service simply by getting a higher salary, explain why your employer can expect to get good service from you, his employee, just by giving you performance evaluations and a salary?
What is so special about waiters that they almost uniquely can’t be trusted to work hard for fear of getting a poor evaluation and getting fired?
Dismissing my other arguments by asserting they don’t exist is also not a useful argumentative technique. It’s like saying “I can’t figure out how to answer those, so I’ll pretend they don’t exist”.
Thank you for dealing with the question of the $2.15 employee. Your argument is that getting bad tips will make the employee work harder for good tips. My argument is that the bad employee knew when they started that tips would be based on customer satisfaction. If they are performing poorly, they either don’t care, or can’t improve.
MY point is that if the waiter doesn’t care about tips, you will get bad service when you get stuck with that waiter, and since the boss is paying $2.15 an hour, he doesn’t care, until you actually COMPLAIN to the boss about it, or stop showing up because of bad service.
BUT, both of those things would work equally well to get rid of a bad waiter getting paid $6.00 an hour. So paying $2.15 an hour does not, by that argument, help get you better waiters. You’d get better waiters if the restaurant paid a bit more, and then was more picky about who they hired, and implemented a better evaluation policy to get rid of the bad waiters.
There are two ways a restaurant can get top-notch waiters. The first is to sell very expensive food. Then a 15% tip on a table is serious money, so the best waitstaff gravitate to those restaurants. Hardly a good thing for us, the customer, if we are looking for cheap food — the food might not be that much better, but it costs a lot more so we get better waiters because we also have to pay a much larger tip for the same task.
The second would be to actually pay the waitstaff more. That would compensate for being a restaurant with lower-priced meals. After all it is the exact same job waiting a table whether you bring out a $7 burger meal, or a $25 steak meal. The one pays you $1.15, the other pays you $4.
Of course, I never said I wanted to get rid of tipping. I said I preferred restaurants where the food was cheaper but reasonable quality, and the waitstaff was paid a bit more so they were motivated to provide good service.
I have provided my reasons why such an arrangement could make sense, and I’m sure there are good arguments against it.
I have never tipped the mechanic who works on my car. Well, for years I went to a one-man shop, so the mechanic was the owner, and since then I just go to the dealership so I never see my mechanic. I do tip the person who cuts my hair. Except I almost always cut my own now, but at the time, I kept going back to the same person, so it actually HELPED ME GET GOOD SERVICE because they remembered my good tips.
Why?
Stupid twitter. I have a feed, and then I click on things, and then there’s comment sections, and I comment, and then realize where I am after idiots start responding.
If you want to go through life thinking that a self-service restaurant isn’t really a self-service restaurant, knock yourself out.
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