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To: HamiltonJay; rockrr
HamiltonJay to rockrr: "I hate to point out to the author a few facts that I am sure their limited knowledge of this time in american history is unaware, but I feel I must, since the ignorance is so deep that they believe the civil war was purely about nothing more than slavery."

Since you are a self-professed "expert", I'm certain you already know the basic facts:

  1. Beginning immediately after the Presidential Election of November 6, 1860, Deep South secessionists began meeting and soon declaring secession from the United States.
    Every document on the subject shows that their reasons for secession were, "purely about nothing more than slavery".
    The United States government under out-going President Buchanan took no actions to stop secession.

  2. Simultaneously, secessionists began provoking war with the United States by seizing dozens of major Federal properties -- i.e., forts, arsenals, ships, mints.
    At first, the US government made no response to such provocations.

  3. On March 3, 1861, Confederate President Davis ordered military preparations to seize US Fort Sumter.
    On March 6, the new Confederate Congress authorized raising 100,000 troops -- at a time when the entire US Army was barely 25,000 strong with most scattered in forts out west.

  4. In the mean time, on March 4 President Lincoln appealed for peace and harmony in his Inaugural Address:

      "We are not enemies, but friends.
      We must not be enemies.
      Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection.
      The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

  5. In April 1861, the new Confederacy started war with the United States by a military assault on federal troops in federal Fort Sumter.
    President Lincoln then called for 75,000 Union troops to recover federal properties seized by secessionists.

  6. See post #173 above for a summary of Confederate responses, culminating in its formal declaration of war on May 6, 1861.

  7. All of this happened before a single Confederate soldier had been killed in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.
    The first battle deaths came on June 10, 1861.

Bottom line: the Deep South slave-power declared its secession "purely about nothing more than slavery".
But that alone did not cause Civil War.
Civil War came because those secessions first provoked, then started and formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

At that point their fate was sealed, and Unconditional Surrender their only option.
Slavery was then utterly doomed, and Confederate states generally condemned to generations of relative poverty.

Of course, I'm certain you already know that, right?

198 posted on 02/01/2014 5:54:58 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
At that point their fate was sealed, and Unconditional Surrender their only option. Slavery was then utterly doomed, and Confederate states generally condemned to generations of relative poverty.

Not quite. Their other option was to win their independence by force of arms.

At which they very nearly succeeded.

201 posted on 02/01/2014 7:13:32 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: BroJoeK; HamiltonJay; PeaRidge

I’m sure that our FRiend HamiltonJay was just simply a bit awkward in his phraseology and didn’t mean to lecture us from any declared point of superior knowledge. Just as I’m confident that he knows the difference between succeed and secede. We’re all here to learn and to offer our perspective, right?

The unfortunate thrust of HamiltonJay’s post is that it presumes an argument that none of us - including the author - has made. Once made, he then condemns the false argument without actually rebutting it.

I’ve seen no one here assert that southern slavery was the only issue that led to the war, but I would assert that it was the primary reason. Even the other contributory facts listed by HamiltonJay all redound to the practice and economics of slavery.

One thing I’ve learned about history - in addition to the fact that there’s always more to learn - is that history is complicated and often messy. Efforts to reduce the complex down to a sound-bite usually occur at the loss of accuracy and do a disservice to all of us.

It is true that there was a cultural divide between north and south. Some sought to capitalize upon the differences while others were seemingly oblivious to it. The founders recognized a need for a suitably strong federal government to repel our enemies. Southern democrats like Madison and Jefferson fervently espoused the anti-federalist, agrarian model. Jefferson, ever paranoid that Washington would assume a monarchy, opposed arming ourselves with a standing army and frustrated efforts to finance any such endeavors. I was taught that Adams was Jefferson’s ideological opposite but Adams and Jefferson held several things in common. The Quasi-War should have served as a wake-up call to America when we found ourselves unarmed and virtually defenseless against hostile enemies. Adams, a federalist, built up the navy and oversaw a successful campaign against the French only to disband the army at its conclusion - much to the dismay of Hamilton, who was his ideological companion but political enemy. Jefferson, who was at the time serving (or should I say self-serving) as Adam’s vice president, opposed the expansion.

Jefferson, the frugal agrarian, discovered the federal checkbook when president and, defiant of the prospect of impeachment completed the Louisiana Purchase. Jefferson, who eschewed the concept of a federal bank (and thus a mechanism for the federal government to pay its bills) spend federal dollars to build a navy in response to the Barbary Pirates. Jefferson even opposed his fellow southerners when they sought his support for a federal bank in order to finance the purchase of new land and new slaves.

The democrat party under Madison gained dominance of the nation and ushered in the “Era of good feelings” - a curious euphemism which in truth meant the total expunction of the Federalist party. The perception of equanimity was a sham wherein only one portion of the political spectrum had any voice and only that selfsame side had any significant influence on events. A democrats dream, eh?

I mention these anecdotes to provide a backdrop for the influences at play. Democrats have always been more about the purchase than the payment. Conservatives have always understood the necessity to take responsibility and pay your way. Without a mechanism for generating revenue other than tariffs the government couldn’t pay their obligations. Exactly who was going to be stuck with the bill was a haggle-fest that began even before the creation of our nation (and continues unabated). Left/right, up/down, north/south, the maneuvering was always going on in the background.

That negotiation, as manifested in the form of the Morrill Tariff, was nothing new. On another WBTS thread a neo-confederate attempts to posit the Morrill Tariff as the proximate cause of the WBTS. He outlines the progression of events surrounding the event but fails to make the case for its prominence in the sequence of events. Passage of the Morrill Tariff was a setback for southern interests but it was not an act of tyranny. It simply did not rise to the the level of “abuses and usurpations” exhibitive of a despot.

The “simple truth” is that the southern slavers were the ruling class in the south. They had erected a way of life that made them fabulously rich. They did not want anything disturbing that way of life, even the march of time. They were effecting at swaying the “Low Information Voters” of their era to join them in the folly of a rebellion that resulted in a disastrous war.

“Now, to mock others ignorance, when yours is on display to see hopefully will make you go do some homework before you open your trap again.” Excellent advice and one that we should all practice.


205 posted on 02/01/2014 10:15:35 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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