The man that is helping to produce strong conservatives. On radio for 52 years!

fhu ^ | 09/16/12 | fabian

[Elsie]

I essentially agree with this, but would add that the one converting, as a part of that "event" also repents of his former self and accepts Christ's atonement completely in his/her life and thereby becomes a changed creature, who seeks to follow Christ, immulate Him, bring others to Him, and keep His commandments, despite the weakness of their own mortality.

Unless the person is a MURDERER; then Christ's blood is to no avail: the perp's OWN blood must be shed to atone for his own sin.

[Elsie]

I essentially agree with this, but would add that the one converting, as a part of that "event" also repents of his former self and accepts Christ's atonement completely in his/her life and thereby becomes a changed creature, who seeks to follow Christ, immulate Him, bring others to Him, and keep His commandments, despite the weakness of their own mortality.

 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

---

1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

[Elsie]

 

 

Eerily familiar...

 

 

Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.

 

16. Ministry Of Truth

.......

The Ministry of Truth, Winston's place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below.

The Ministry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further.

The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels - with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child's spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary.

Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston's job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance.

When his day's work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify.

In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston's arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.

As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconscious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames.

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs.

There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed.

And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who co-ordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence.

 

 

[Yossarian]

Unless the person is a MURDERER; then Christ's blood is to no avail: the perp's OWN blood must be shed to atone for his own sin.

Well, in my simple view of what God, the Creator of EVERYTHING and EVERY SOUL can do...

...if He wants to forgive a murderer, He certainly can do it. And I'm quite sure the Bible says that Christ - both Son of, and consubstantially the same as, the Creator - died for all our sins, not just some of them.

[Elsie]

Someone where called me a liar...

Besides ME??

To: fabian

You cannot learn salvation and I also have not judged anyone.

Liar!

79 posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:26:32 AMby Elsie(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

[Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

[boatbums]

Jesus was the son you guys are all confused. This godhead stuff is a bunch of mismatched gobbilty gook meant only to confuse people unwittingly.

Who should we believe, Masters' disciple or the disciple of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul?

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, (Colossians 2:9)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Colossians 1:15-20)

[boatbums]

Makes me shudder how close we already are to that reality. I remember the term "a paperless society" from work many years ago and the idea that EVERYTHING could be stored on computers, easily and immediately accessible, entire forests would be saved and waste reduced dramatically enough to vastly improve air quality and preserve natural resources. It all sounded SO idyllic, until you realize that such a reality also meant no "paper trail". If nothing was in a permanent format (i.e.; books, letters, etc.) then anything could also be changed and there would be no documented evidence to prove otherwise. We have seen examples enough on the internet where a video that was there one day, disappears completely the next. Newspaper articles that were readable online, suddenly weren't there anymore (think Obama's history) and anyone who claimed they HAD read it, would be challenged to "prove it". Any documents copied and printed beforehand could be accused of being "fabricated" since there IS no record of such an article (anymore). Who knew George Orwell was such a prophet?

I think we both agree that, though cultists may speak the same language and may use the same terms, what they mean and what we understand them to mean are vastly different. Right on this thread we have a disciple who is defending a doctrine that is directly opposed to what the Bible says and calling those who hold to the traditional understanding fools, hypnotized robots and ignorant of the truth. Not at all any different than what the early Christians confronted in those caught up in Gnostic heresies. Nothing new under the sun!

[boatbums]

Okay, Fabian, you have been playing defense for the last few days, why not take the opportunity to shine for Roy Masters as his follower and help us understand his philosophy behind denying the deity of Jesus Christ. I have asked you a few times on this thread to explain why this doctrine is so critical to the Masters method and you have not yet done so.

We already know why Mormonism denies the deity of Jesus Christ - because it doesn't fit in with their doctrine about the Father God once being a man and who is now exalted and Jesus being his first begotten spirit child. They teach that ALL men may attain the same godhood as long as they follow all the Mormon precepts and rules. Having an everlasting, almighty, uncreated, eternal God and Jesus being the incarnation of Almighty God blows their idea to bits. This is why they rewrote the Bible so that it conforms to what their "prophets" teach.

So, as I asked you before, why does this doctrine matter so much to the success or failure of Masters' process? Does he also hold to a semblance of the Mormon beliefs about Jesus and our ultimate goals and destination? Can a person follow Roy Masters and remain a traditional Christian in the main tenets of the faith as they have always been believed or must they discard some of those tenets in order to prevail, and why? I'm not trying to trap you, just offering an opportunity for you to explain why such faith is a "big mistake".

[fabian]

I don’t know what you are talking about...doctrine...masters process. There is no “masters process”. There is a simple Be still exercise which is very biblical and as I made it clear, the Jesus is God stuff was not a part of the early Christians. It came about in the 3rd century! There is only one God, not three! That is bizarre stuff you guys believe.

[boatbums]

I don’t know what you are talking about...doctrine...masters process. There is no “masters process”. There is a simple Be still exercise which is very biblical and as I made it clear, the Jesus is God stuff was not a part of the early Christians. It came about in the 3rd century! There is only one God, not three! That is bizarre stuff you guys believe.

Now, now, this is your opportunity to SHINE, no need to start out being testy! We ALL know that this "Be Still" exercise is far from the only thing espoused by Roy Masters. You have been the one to criticize and mock those who believe in the Biblical - as shown through the numerous Scripture passages posted here - doctrine of a triune God. Why you insist on saying Christians believe in "three gods" is what is bizarre. That the Council of Nicea formally defined the doctrine of the Trinity is certainly NOT when the doctrine was preached and believed on. They didn't invent the idea out of thin air! Have you gone to the various sites given to you to read about the Scriptural basis for the triune nature of Almighty God or do you choose to remain in ignorance afraid that what is there might detract from your reverence of Roy Masters?

And you still haven't answered my simple question. Roy Masters says that Jesus is NOT God. Why is this doctrine so critical to his so-called Biblical process? What does the deity of Jesus have to do with the "Be still" exercise? Why does it matter so much that people reject this doctrine? Why won't you answer this simple question?

In case you might want to take a look, here are a few that will help you see that this is HARDLY a bizarre, man-made crazy idea:

http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10.htm

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Edit_Trinity.and.Shamrock.html

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/JWs%20and%20Deity.htm

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/historicaldeityofjesus.htm

I do hope you will at least read these links so that you get a better understanding of what Christians REALLY believe about the Trinity and not just take someone elses word for it. If you have been told we believe in three gods, you have been lied to. If you care at all about the truth, at least read through some of these links so that we can be on the same page discussing our faith.

[fabian]

I already did shine and you missed it. I don’t perform like a dog because you tell me too. And true Christians clearly see what the early and very brave Christians saw before it was changed deceitfully in the 3rd century...that Jesus came to show his fathers will and did not do his own will, so that mankind may be saved...which he showed and said clearly. Sorry you are so lost in your intellectualized version of faith. It will not save you.

[boatbums]

What do you call "shine"? All you have done is praise an exercise called "Be still" and mock any Christians who profess belief in the deity of Jesus Christ - a belief ALWAYS held by genuine Christians. You sure seem very angry are you sure Roy Masters has helped you that much? Most people I know would be glad to explain what they believe and why they do, but so far, all you have done is speak in "code" and then you fume when people ask for an explanation. You equate answering a simple question to being told to "perform like a dog". That is bizarre. Maybe you could point me to the post where you did your "shining" because I must have missed it.

If you are so distraught over having to defend something YOU said and which the majority of Christians on this thread disagree with and weren't shy about saying why, then just say so and we'll let this thread die a natural death. But if you REALLY believe so strongly in what you posted this thread to do, then be a man and speak up. Preferably, without the nasty name calling and insults. Nobody is going to be persuaded to your way of thinking that way. You are only turning people off to anything Roy Masters represents - are you sure he would want that? You titled this thread "The man that is helping to produce strong conservatives. On radio for 52 years!", but, when challenged about what the man says about the Christian faith, you couldn't do anything but be cranky, sarcastic and mocking - NOT a good way to attract people to your cause. Maybe next time you will be able to start out on a better footing, but do NOT expect the Christians here to be mute when our very faith is being attacked. Just some FRiendly advice!

[Springfield Reformer]

I am very sorry to hear you rely on Wikipedia for either your theology or your history. There is a better source. It’s called the Bible. Nicea was the culmination of a long debate. The Gnostics had begun, within the lifetime of the apostle John, to attempt to discredit the early church belief in Jesus as God, because they wanted to sell their “secret knowledge” that could put you in an altered state of consciousness where you could rise above moral limitations and become one with the divine.

This pitch worked well enough with the pagans, but Christians were a problem. You only had to openly believe in Jesus, and repent of your sin, and God would accept you. That’s it. No eternal quest to reach God. He had already come to us in Jesus. No secrets to sell. Jesus revealed everything we really need to know. No altered states of consciousness to achieve. God had freely given us his Holy Spirit.

And no complicated man-made rules to artificially come between you and the enjoyment of life. Because you see, for the Gnostic, the material world was such an evil place, you had to avoid clouding your mind with sensory experiences and mortal passions. But those Christians, simpletons that they were, thought they could get around all that by just putting their faith in Christ.

So as it happened, the Gnostics did try, for centuries, to corrupt the church, in several ways, but mainly by attacking the deity of Christ, which, BTW, was believed by the apostles, especially after the resurrection. Even the doubter Thomas, when confronted with the living Christ, addressed him personally as “my Lord and my God.” And the Greek makes it clear he was speaking of Jesus when he said this. Don’t let anyone kid you about translation issues. That is the meaning.

Nevertheless, the battle raged on, and by the third century, it began to look as if the original belief in Jesus being God in the flesh might lose out to the Gnostic perversion. But God raised up men, and one man in particular, Athanatius, who would argue relentlessly from the Scriptures for the old belief, the first belief, that Jesus was in fact God. And God was pleased to use him and others to secure the truth about Jesus, so that it could be passed on to later generations who would be faithful to God’s written word.

Now I understand that it seems confused to you, that the trinity challenges your sense of logic. It challenges anyone who thinks about it honestly. That does not make it untrue. Quite the opposite. If God was just as we imagined him to be, we might rightly be worried he was just the product of our imagination. The truth about God really should be, at least in some respects, unexpected. Even more importantly, it should be based on what he has told us of himself, in his own words, and the words he inspired his unique messengers the apostles to write. And all those words point to Jesus being both with God from uncreated eternity past, but also being God Himself, “and the word was God.” Not a mistranslation.

Does it seem foolish? It should, at least for some. Paul said it would. For the gospel he says is foolishness to those who are lost. But for those who believe, it is the power of God unto salvation. The unconverted mind cannot grasp it, and hates it, and seeks to create its own path to redemption. The childlike faith of which Christ spoke was faith, not in some convoluted retread gnostic controlled mental shutdown, but faith simply in Jesus, to save us from our sins by his death and resurrection. God has hidden this simplicity from the wise and revealed it to mere children. He teaches it to the world even now through the foolishness of preaching. Can you hear it yet?

Peace,

SR

[Elsie]

Ecclesiastes 3

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

² a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
³ a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
⁴ a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
⁵ a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
⁶ a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
⁷ a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
⁸ a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

⁹ What do workers gain from their toil? ¹⁰ I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race.

¹¹ He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

 

 

 

[Elsie]

I have asked you a few times on this thread to explain why this doctrine is so critical to the Masters method and you have not yet done so.

It ain't gonna happen.

We are explaining with the LOGIC of the written Word; while Fabian is dealing with what his EMOTIONS tell him.

We CANNOT trump that!

It'll take a quite severe shock to his BELIEF in Masters' explantions to make him see the Light.

Fabian already has doubts about Roy; but he's doubling down, hoping to shut out that still, small voice.

[Elsie]

There is only one God, not three! That is bizarre stuff you guys believe.

You've confused us Christians and MORMONs.

The ones clinging to LDS doctrine are the guys that believe in 3 gods (and more).

Christianity claims the ONE god; just as the BIBLE proclaims.

---

I am only ONE person, even though different people call me son or Dad or Grandpa.

[Elsie]

...it was changed deceitfully in the 3rd century...

Got any PROOF of this?

Heck; just WHY would it get changed if it caused SO much problems with TRUE christians?

[Elsie]

It challenges anyone who thinks about it honestly.

Aye!

Now THERE's the rub!

[Elsie]

Who would Fardels bear...

[daniel1212]

you make no sense there...God does not serve his father! Good lord, you have lost your common sense man.

It is you who do not have the sense to judge according to how God defines Himself, which is not only as being the Father.

Thus even in the beginning, God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness," (Gn. 1:26) and God created man in His image, not the image of men and angels or created beings.

Cf. Gn. 11:6,7: "And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. "

Nor is anything created ever shown as engaging in creative activity "ex nihilo," rather "Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; " (Isaiah 44:24)

And the Holy Spirit applies to Christ, Ps. 102:25: "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands." (Heb. 1:10) and declares Him to be God, thru whom alll things were made. (Jn. 1:1-3; Col. 1:16)

And John reveals that the Lord whom Isiah saw in His glory when He uttered His prophecy (and which Lord said "who will go for US" was indeed the Lord Jesus. (Jn. 12:34-46; Is. 6:1-10)

Thus the affirmation of Thomas to Christ, "My Lord and my God." (Jn. 20:28)

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. " (1 John 5:20)

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; " (Titus 2:13)

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. " (Revelation 1:7-8)

That the Father, Son and Spirit constitute the one True God is not a belief that began in the 3rd century, which my next post shall address as regards history, but was a NT belief, and by denying the Deity of Christ you actually force Scripture to contradict itself, and have less discernment than the Jews who rightly understood the import of His statements.

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. " (John 5:18)

WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT by Archibald Thomas Robertson:

But also called God his own Father (alla kai patera idion elege ton theon). “His own” (idion) in a sense not true of others. That is precisely what Jesus meant by “My Father.” See Rom_8:32 for ho idios huios, “his own Son.”

Making himself equal with God (ison heauton poiōn tōi theōi). Isos is an old common adjective (in papyri also) and means equal. In Phi_2:6 Paul calls the Pre-incarnate Christ isa theōi, “equal to God” (plural isa, attributes of God).

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM ["he" is not in the Greek, nor in the text below], ye shall die in your sins. " (John 8:24)

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. " (John 8:58-59)

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I AM. " (John 13:13)

"As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM, they went backward, and fell to the ground. " (John 18:6)

"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. " (Exodus 3:13-14)

There are many more texts which teach the Deity of Christ, which is what your types avoid: (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html)