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To: James C. Bennett; savagesusie
Can the values that gave rise to these two societies be extracted and made to thrive independent of the dogma which supposedly gave rise to them? If so, wouldn't the dogma itself be rendered meaningless?

LOL, well that would depend on what the meaning of "dogma," is.

One person's values is another person's dogma, eh?

You've got what someone should do on one hand, and you've got why someone should do it on the other hand. So how can you take one of those away and leave the other one intact? Aren't they two sides of the same coin? Change one, you change the other - they're interdependent. Remove one... then upon what does the other stand?

savagesusie and others believe that the Christian doctrine is equivalent to the true belief in God that is necessary to uphold American principles. But the Founders also drew heavily upon the ancient Greeks and Romans. And plenty of Christians in Europe never got the freedom memo - to this day. As well, why not therefore make Christianity part of the American government, rather than the (at the time) outrageously liberal 1st Amendment?

As you point out, morality is strong in Singapore and Japan. Well, so too is it all over the world. For example, in India, both philosophically and in reality, morality is the very essence of religious thought. Much of India's problems come from communist economics, massive population and Muslim infiltration. But it was Hindus who would admit to even capital crimes when simply questioned by the British in the 1800s, even when they knew it would mean execution. The British marvelled at such an intense morality.

That's just an example, but the point is that morality is not a solely Christian doctrine or practice on this planet, and to claim such is insulting - in the extreme - to billions of non-Christian human beings. Nor, of course, do Christians or Catholics agree to be held en masse to the failings - even major ones - of morally fallen members or past actions of their own religions (while between themselves they hold the others as "not Christian" enough). So it works both ways.

I believe the root "need" is something most people - all around the world - would consider too simplistic. Nevertheless, I think it's missing almost everywhere, no matter what people claim to be. The Bible refers to God as "terrible" in certain places, and it always used to bother me. Now, not so much. Because I believe it is referring to what happens when a human being finally realizes that there really is a God beyond the reach of all the mental and emotional games and denial, who cannot be ignored any longer. That soul-recognition is "terrible" to the ego, because it is permanent. From then on, it cannot be escaped, not matter what religion one is.

And if it is lacking, no religion on earth will keep one moral, which is why there are frauds in every religion.

From that alone comes the idea that there is a way of life that must be lived that is truly moral - because at that point, one can truly hear the guidance of God, because one becomes desperate not to screw up. That's why murderous "religions" are false, because there is no humility in them. And humility is the direct result of realizing that there is no escape, for anyone, from God's law.

Which, (oh yeah, that's where I started), also includes economics - as well as everything else.

15 posted on 05/19/2012 12:21:15 AM PDT by Talisker (He who commands, must obey.)
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To: Talisker

Thanks, Talisker! I always enjoy your comments!


16 posted on 05/19/2012 12:33:24 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Talisker

Christianity is the most “rational” religion. That is my only point—not that it is the “true” religion—as you said I “claimed”. I am not claiming that-—I am saying that Christianity—because of St. Thomas Aquinas who aligned it to Natural Law Theory -—it is the perfect fit for a Constitution based on Natural Laws which is the foundation of American law.

Common Law was distinctly Christian and is the basis of our jurisprudence. Common Law and likewise—the Christian Magna Carta were very influential in the formation of the US—and the US was the most free, just and successful for the middle class—country by far. Never have human beings had such freedom is such a large sphere of life which lasted so long.

I respect the Jewish Orthodox religion as much as the Christian one, but it has never been as inclusive as Christianity has been, IMHO. Dinesh D’Souza who understood Hinduism—wrote in his book, “What’s so Great about Christianity?” that Christianity is the most “rational”....because of its history. Knowing only that the Hindu’s used to burn the wives of dead husbands and revered cows or something, I really can’t comment with authority on Hinduism, but rational???????—I really have to believe what Dinesh Di’Souza said in his book about the various religions. He justified all his claims.

You can never have “Just Laws” based on anything but Natural Law (Cicero).

You are right-—St. Thomas adopted Aristotle’s Ethics and added the Theological Virtues of Hope, Faith, and Charity—to make the Greek philosophy as perfect as it possibly can get. Stoicism was adopted by the Christians also—but they improved that also—not abrogating all passion—there is a proper place for passions.

Christianity is referred to as “paganism” because St. Augustine and many of the Fathers of the Church appreciated Platonic philosophy and eventually Aristotle also. They improved their philosophy. It is why the Western Civilization is so awesome-—new generations built on the genius of the previous generations. Unlike the nihilism of the Postmodernists who want to destroy Civilization by destroying God, particularly Christianity and who threw out the Laws of Nature—reason and logic.

It is why Ayn Rand referred to Marx, Hegel, Nietzsche as “irrational”. They were.


20 posted on 05/19/2012 7:58:06 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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