Posted on 05/01/2011 10:49:54 AM PDT by Signalman
Take care of your transmission Oil-change shops push fluid changes that aren't needed May 1, 2007
BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS COLUMNIST The $14.99 oil change Linda Good wanted for her 2001 Dodge Voyager ended up costing her more than $100 and buying her a new set of worries. A Madison Heights oil-change shop sold her a transmission fluid change that is almost never necessary, experts say.
"For customers, it's basically throwing your money away," said Daniel Black, Chrysler senior manager of automatic transmission engineering. Despite that, many service stations -- including leading national chains -- offer the procedure. There's no telling how many people pay for it every day. After the oil change, the service attendant said the Voyager's automatic transmission fluid looked dirty and should be changed. Good, who relies on the minivan for her housecleaning, Avon sales and home caregiver businesses, took his advice. The rough, clunky shifts began before she got to the first traffic light. Good cleans my house and knows I drive cars for a living, so she called and asked me how much trouble she was in. Potentially plenty, and it could happen to you. "We don't recommend a" transmission fluid "change in the life of the vehicle," Black said. "The risks are leaks, putting the wrong fluid in, over-filling or under-filling." A bungled fluid change can destroy an automatic transmission or void the manufacturer's warranty on the delicate and expensive component. "As a general rule of thumb, newer transmission designs are sealed for life," said Tim Miskotten, who leads North American business for ZF AG, the German company that is the world's largest independent transmission maker. ZF supplies gearboxes to Ford, Audi, BMW Jaguar and other leading automakers. "You don't need to change the fluid in the normal life of a vehicle," Miskotten said.
Chrysler makes its own transmissions, and its minivans routinely cover 150,000 miles in service as Las Vegas taxis without a transmission fluid change, Black said. "They're our toughest customers," because of constant stop-and-go driving and 24-hour-a-day operation in the blazing desert heat, he said. Black wouldn't diagnose Good's vehicle over the phone, but he said rough shifting after a fluid change could be caused by a refill with the wrong fluid. While few vehicles ever need their transmission fluid changed, even national auto service chains like Jiffy Lube offer the service as routine maintenance. On the rare occasions the fluid actually should be changed, it should be done only by a technician who's certified to work on automatic transmissions and has access to specialized tools and the exact fluid the manufacturer specifies, ZF's Miskotten said.
"You can't just go to the service station and pick up a quart," he said. Each transmission requires fluid produced precisely to formula, he said. "You absolutely have to have the fluid that's specified. It's no longer the case where" an oil shop "says 'We have ATF.' " Using the wrong fluid can lead to rough shifts and noisy operation, he said.
"The correct fluid is most important for shift quality," Black said. It's also vital to fill the transmission to precisely the right level, both experts said. Transmission fluid levels are much more exacting than engine oil, where you can miss the sweet spot by a pint or more with no consequences. "If a vehicle is under-filled and operated in cold weather, you could have a transmission failure," Black said.
Even transmission specialists don't do fluid changes very frequently, said Barry Bryan, owner of American Transmission in Troy. "I check the owner's manual," Bryan said. "If the manufacturer says the fluid never needs to be changed, I agree." Changing the transmission fluid doesn't help if there's already damage, said Bryan, who has owned his station since 1985 and has 40 years' experience working on transmissions. "A problem in the fluid is a sign of other trouble."
After Good had problems with the minivan, she went back to the shop, where she was told she needed more fluid and told if she had more questions to go to a nearby shop under the same ownership. At the second shop she was told to go to a transmission specialist. Mo Dia, who owns Major Oil, where Good had her van serviced, said he recommends a change when fluid is the wrong color or has a burnt smell, adding that the shop does not change fluid if the owner's manual says it is not necessary.
"Does that mean it was a mistake if somebody changed the fluid in a Voyager where Chrysler says it's not necessary?" I asked. "If the vehicle is over 100,000 miles, you don't go by the owner's manual," Dia said. Chrysler said the owner's manual advice still applies after 100,000 miles. Dia initially said he kept every type of transmission fluid in stock. Asked about ATF +4, the fluid Chrysler specifies for the 2001 Voyager, he said, "We have an additive, Smart Blend, to convert regular automatic transmission fluid to ATF +4." "We haven't tested that additive," Chrysler spokeswoman Heather May said. "It's not something we'd recommend." Ten days after the fluid change, Good's Voyager still has rough shifts, but she's comforted knowing that it could be much worse.
"I thought my transmission was going," she said. "That would be a big expense."
What if the owner's manual is wrong? I had an 88 Dodge Dakota and had always learned to change the tranny fluid every 30,000 miles. The owner's manual stated to use Mopar ATF+ Type 7176 or Dextron II. Well the local parts store didn't carry Type 7176 so I put in Dextron II.
Just over 70,000 miles (can you say after warranty?) the tranny went out. Had it rebuilt and it died again at 98,000 miles. Shortly after that, the guy at the parts store looked it up on his computer and there it was:
Mopar Type 7176
Dextron II
WARNING! Use of Dextron II in this (Chrysler 904) transmission can cause premature failure of the torque converter.
If it caused the tranny to fail, WHY DID THE MANUAL STATE IS COULD BE USED??????
Hey thanks for the favorite quotes link!
I saved it in my “favorites” and I am sure I will use it often. Looks very useful and fun.
Cheers!
Cool.
hey Kansas, how did you go about getting them to claim responsibility? the regional director keeps trying to claim their dexron with additive is a sufficient alt to jws3309 which we of course know, is not.
I told them that I would hurt their business far more than the cost of my transmission, if they did not make it right.
This is an awesome article about sealed transmissions and fluid, yet people are talking about changing oil, lol come on there are plenty of articles on that. I haven’t found any good advice on sealed trans until I talked to a chrysler guy today then happened to stumble on this.
Sealed transmission do not need the fluid changed unless you’re towing or change it every 60k. Even if the fluid is a little dirty, that’s all the more reason not to change. It means the trans has settled in and somehow it uses the contamination to fill.. something idk.
I drive a dodge magnum, 160k, has sealed trans and hasn’t given me one problem. I was trying to figure out if I should change it or not but the chrysler guy and this article gives good reasons not to. I was very glad to stumble across this
I spent 25 years developing HD automatics at Allison.
Fresh fluid is always your friend.
I will agree it’s important that it be done correctly.
We referred to the typical dealer transmission flush as “wallet flush”
18 months of quiet... but here goes...
I just bot a Mercedes E320 Wagon in Sacramento California, drove it to a bunch of junkyards on Rt 99, filled it with old dusty Cheby Teeruk parts and Corvair parts.
I decided before I left for home to change the very dark tranny oil. I know all the arguments, but my belief is that folks change the oil when a problem creeps up, so they surmise the fresh oil led to a failure. I never believed there were scrubbing bubbles breaking loose sludge.
So I dumped the mud, and drained the TC as well, got 7 qts out in total. I used FEBI made in Germany oil from NAPA, $9 a qt + tx. I was advised to use Valvoline Max Life at $7 a qt, but I splurged on the FEBI.
I had a 3,000 mile drive home... So what do you guys think happened?
Never heard of FEBI, but I assume it’s made to be compatible with vehicles of the Fatherland.
Looked them up, I see they’re part of Bilstein.
Yup, FEBI is like Mother’s milk for a baby. I figured if NAPA says to use it, and it’s made in Germany... And I wonder what the real diff is between all the various formulas?
Back in my youth, FORD spec oil had less slipperiness to make up for harder clutch-disc friction material. so if one was to use GM fluid, the shifts would be slightly harder, IMO a good thing!
I didn’t detect any change in the shift quality, and we made it 3,000 miles home, most of the time cruising at 80mph w 3 step bumpers strapped to the roof!
I may try sell the car, and I may change the oil again. Now I have an eBay dipstick, better than the speedo cable my friend found on the ground in a junkyard to check the oil!
Online chatter said the tranny is VERY sensitive to oil level, a few ounces either way could affect the tranny. BS, I took it to the Merc dealer in Palm springs, and his stick showed 1 qt low. I added 1 more qt when I filled it, so much for every ounce meaning something.
I vidded the entire trip, it’s all on ytube CORVAIRWILD
Great story man! Will check out the vids.
You probably don’t keep your cars for mare than 100K miles. Some of us nurse them along for 200K or more so we know a lot about the “racket”.
From what I’m reading, the trans (rather than the engine) is now often the first major component to fail at high miles, leading to vehicle scrappage.
Changing every 50,000 miles or so is a good practice, especially if you can do it yourself, not very expensive.
The no dip stick thing is killing me. The manufactures are saying drive your car for 100K then scrap it. Planned obsolescence. I have given up on AT’s even though I like them, when I buy used car/truck a get a stick shift. Yes new clutches are expensive but it is a known cost with a lot of lead time.
“If it caused the tranny to fail, WHY DID THE MANUAL STATE IS COULD BE USED??????”
Manuals are often updated. You must always check with the manufacturer for errata sheets before making such decisions.
Case in point: The BMW manual states the rear shaft drive fluid in their motorcycles never needs to be changed. The errata says it must be changed and checked for leaks every 6,000 miles. Failure to do so voids the warranty.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.