Posted on 01/10/2011 8:03:13 PM PST by Ramius
This is a topic that I have considered posting for a long time. I'm hoping to generate some good quality discussion, becuase I think this really matters. I don't know the answers. I hope that with some vigorous discussion maybe some good actionable ideas will come out.
The exercise is this: You are out and about, let's say... at a shopping mall. It could be anywhere, of course. But for the purposes of this exercise we're at a shopping mall. You're looking at a nice pair of boots in the window of some store-- suddenly the unmistakable sound of gunshots ring out. Someone is actively shooting nearby. We will assume for this exercise that:
-- You are lawfully carrying your concealed weapon. -- You are the sort that is running toward the sound of the guns.
So here are the questions:
1.) How do we recognize each other? Presumably, in a busy mall, it's entirely likely that more than one person with a CCW will respond to the sound of the guns. You run to the sound, but how do you know if when you see a guy with a gun, he's the guy with the gun that matters? What do we do about that?
Finding another CCW carrier to team up with is a huge force multiplier... but how do we recognize each other in a split second? Some of the alternatives are disastrous.
2.) How do we identify and distinguish ourselves to the police? The police will show up, and in ginormous numbers. Sooner or later the place will be crawling with them. How do we ~not~ be "the guy with a gun" they are looking for?
Let's face it... when there's an active shooter situation going on, when the cops show up (or even when some other CCW carriers show up) it's REALLY important that everybody understands who the threats are and who they aren't.
So. How do we do that?
I mentioned earlier about Dan McKown that was shot by a punk in the Tacoma Mall in 2005. McKown was shot and is paralized in the legs. However, his actions caused the shooter to retreat, taking hostages, which he talked with and cried with and then surrendered. The following blog has more details (McKown WAS hidden behind a counter with his gun drawn, but then with his gun holstered stood up and told the shooter (with an AK-47) to stop. McKown was then shot. McKown later said the shooter was “just a kid, I couldn’t just shoot this kid in the head...” The blog goes into a non-critical review of McKown - admitting that for most folks, it is against our instinct to kill another person.
An excerpt:
http://thirtysecondthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/12/lessons-learned-tacoma-mall-shooting.html
In my opinion, the real reason that Dan McKown ended up getting shot was not his tactics. It was his mindset. It was because he had not thought about what he would do if he ever had to confront a live gunman. McKown had not consciously decided on what conditions would not only allow him to use deadly force, but require him to do so in order to protect himself.....
The time to decide on how you are going to react to a deadly force confrontation is now, not when you are suddenly confronted. You won’t have time then. When you are facing deadly force you need to be focusing on how to survive and prevail, not on whether you should be involved. The way to do this is to decide on triggers, acts by another that justify deadly force and that turn off your normal, natural, and salutory inhibitions against hurting others, and then make the conscious decision to act in a tactically appropriate manner based upon those triggers.
He looks like Uncle Fester from the Adams Family
“After you shoot him, scream “I shot the gun man”, toss your gun away from your body and lay down on the ground. Pray that you won’t get shot or blamed for the crime of the perp (like Sarah Palin who was not even there!).”
Then his buddy i.d.’s you, and the fact that you are defenseless...
Maybe you could yell “It’s Bush’s fault” (I thought he meant the GOA when he talked about an ownership society) then he’ll think you’re one of them.
1. Keep your gun concealed until you understand the situation
2. If you’re not sure do NOT reveal your weapon
3. Take out ID and hold it as high as possible as most undercover police will do in this type of situation. I know this sounds like a lot to do, but it may save YOUR life.
4. Only when you are sure of your situation commit to action and then return your weapon to it’s concealed position ASAP, keeping your ID in Plain sight. In most situations the holding or displaying of your ID will tell law enforcement that you’re on their side.
On the issue of mindset, while it is a bit dated, Mas Ayoob’s book “In the Gravest Extreme” continues to be quite a worthwhile read for the way he addresses the mindset issue. I recommend anyone who has firearms for self defense read this book. Twice.
I wouldn’t suggest reholstering during a fight. I only meant while trotting through the mall toward the sound of shots.
In every state I'm familiar with, you may use deadly force to protect a third party from death or serious bodily injury. There is no clause about not protecting "strangers" vice people you know or family members.
Police, unless they are Military Police, ARE civilians. (Sorry, just a pet peeve.)
Your FIRST responsibility is the safety of you and those around you.
Don't go looking for trouble. Especially if you cannot see where the shots are coming from and who is the shooter.
Keep it holstered. Until you can assess the threat correctly, all you will do is add to the confusion and possibly cause more casualties. Maybe even get yourself shot by another CCW holder.
Now, that's if you hear, but cannot see the active shooter. If you can see him, determine his direction or if you see he is about to harm another, then it is your mindset that is more important than caliber, firearm, distance, ammunition, etc.
It's go time.
Keep cover between you and the shooter. Chances are when he sees you, he's going to unload as fast as possible. Wait it out, he'll have to reload at some point, and then make that break work for you.
You'll be concentrating on the shooter rather than the sights. No matter what the pundits tell you about it, it happens that way. The mind concentrates on the threat.
You will go into tunnel vision and auditory exclusion. Recoil, report, screams, and all the sounds will cut out. You may not even register being shot if that happens
Make your shots count. A loud miss is just that.
Aim low, put the perp down and off his feet. Put rounds out until the threat is eliminated. This doesn't mean necessarily dead either.
Reload. If he is still possibly alive, he still has the capacity to kill.
Disarm the perp. Don't pick up the weapon, but move it away from his grasp. Control his movements.
Once the situation has been resolved, reholster your weapon. LEO's will be there soon and finding anyone armed will just put you in the sights.
Have your ID and CCW permit out and available. This will go a LONG way to ease the LEO's excitement. Surrender your weapon upon request, and ANNOUNCE you are removing it and unloading it. Do so in a safe direction and manner.
NONE of the above matters if you do not practice, and that means not just shooting, but how you carry, draw, situate yourself, where your reloads are, how many to carry,etc.
Situational awareness, watching those around you, and planning ahead will save your life and probably someone else. But you have to have the mindset. If you have a CCW and you carry, you carry more than just the weapon, you carry the responsibility of employment.
Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
I have been involved in two civilian shootings. I won both of them. Most cops are useless and downright dangerous in shooting situations. I got onto both because I was observing the area and asking myself what looked wrong. Saved one life and in the second case stopped the perp from taking more. Overall satisfactory results.
Here in Nevada the standard is you have to feel your life is in danger. That said no jury in this State has ever convicted someone of saving another person.
I very much agree with the not trying to give commands. Just shoot the perp and make sure they are down hard and disarmed.
His point is that officers arriving on the scene with weapons drawn are going to be very aware of any other weapons visible, especially if the weapon is in someone’s hand.
He says, think about it. You get a call for shots fired. You arrive on the scene, adrenaline pumping, you exit your car, see someone lying on the pavement bleeding, and then you see someone else displaying a weapon. He says you have just made the situation much more challenging for the officers. It's hard enough to take it all in in just the few seconds the officer might have and it doesn't help to have an armed person trying to talk to him.
He's been in his job for about 20 years and I would tend to trust his views on the subject. But that's IMHO, I know him and his personality.
It's a tough call.
Making a good ID on the shooter is important, obviously. More than likely, people will be running away from the shooter, so you just have to go against the flow of traffic. I wouldn't run with your weapon in your hand in full view of everyone. I also would not keep it in the holster. Just don't make it obvious. Someone might mistake you for the shooter and hit you over the head with a chair or something.
A situation like this is always fluid and changes every few seconds. The most important thing is to keep your wits about you, stay behind cover as much as possible, and always watch your 6!
T,
Good sound advice. Myself? I am getting me and mine the heck outta there and keep on truckin’. I wish that I was bulletproof, so then I could be the hero that I want to be without the chance of my son losing his father.
There was a shooting in Texas where a DPS officer pulled over an old man for a traffic violation. The old man got out of his car with a rifle and shot the officer in the head. The old man was suffering from some kind of dementia because he immediately got on the trooper's radio and told the dispatcher that the officer was shot. Responding officers showed up to find an old man wearing a cowboy hat holding a gun. They made numerous commands for him to put down the gun which he eventually complied with. The responding officers couldn't make the paradigm shift that an old man with a cowboy hat could be the shooter. They could have easily been shot themselves.
There have been no test cases, however.
Aren't most states like that? Could Oklahoma be the lone exception?
Your post 53 is something that has been bothering me for years. How easy it would be for those goblins to do what you wrote about, and how unprepared the American populace is for it. My wife, for instance, never carries though she has a permit, and laughs at me when I—as I always do—carry my gun when we are shopping.
Thanks.
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