Posted on 12/01/2010 6:06:28 AM PST by decimon
The secret service agent who threw himself into President Kennedy's car at the moment of his assassination, Clint Hill, has published a book about the events.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
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Yes, I know how Oswald shot in the Marines, and it wasn't just "marksmanr" as you say. Oswald qualified THREE times. He qualified as sharpshooter twice in 1956, with scores of 48 and 49 out of 50 in his two different qualifications. In 1959, he qualified as marksman. His officers testified that he just didn't care about shooting. But anyway, sorry. Out of three qualifications, two of them were as sharpshooter.
The testimony of FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier before the Warren Commission regarding Oswald's Carcano was ""It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that."
The Warren Commission DID duplicate the shots. Read the Warren Commission testimony of Ronald Simmons regarding the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory's test, from a tower, of Oswald's Carcano. Of three shooters (NRA master marksmen) totally unfamiliar with the Carcano, shooting two times each, five of the attempts were completed in 4.6 to 7.0 seconds. Of the six attempts, five hit two targets, and two hit all three targets.
Research the 1967 CBS test, using eleven individuals, including sporting goods dealers, sportsmen, ex-military men, and law enforcement personnel, all of whom had never fired a Carcano. You had people hitting two targets in 4.1, 4.3, 4.9, and 5.0 seconds, and one person hitting all three in 5.2 seconds. And, unlike Oswald, they weren't familiar with the weapon in general, much less being familiar with a specific Carcano, as Oswald was with his.
Heck, the two lead ATTORNEYS for the House Select Committee on Assassinations were able to fire two shots in 1.2 and 1.5 seconds, respectively.
As for the accuracy of a Carcano, just Google "Carcano accuracy." For every link saying the rifle is inaccurate, you'll find another link (often from a military weapons source, or a vintage guns source), talking about the "myth" that the Carcano was not accurate, and discussing how the Carcano is an accurate rifle (sometimes "very accurate") rifle WITH the proper loads and modern ammunitition.
Ah...man...not this sh**t again...
BTW...Oswald had 7/8 seconds to fire two shots....the first shot doesn’t count...it’s starts the clock...
It’s not—start the clock and then shoot...
Again read all of the books that I mentioned earlier...
If by smarter you mean not someone that believes everything they think, yes, I am. Sorry, loser.
You are confusing their “feelings” with facts. They have never read the Warren Commission report. They read their “facts” on the Internet written by others that have never read the report.
They “think” someone couldn’t possibly operate a bolt gun 3 times in 7 seconds so it couldn’t possibly be possible even though people who have operated bolt guns say otherwise and plenty of people have duplicated the shots.
They “think” no one could take an accurate shot from that distance but they have never been to that location and seen the distance much less know what that distance actually was.
They “think” no one has duplicated the shots because they have never read or seen where people actually have, even though the reports they claim do not say so actually say so.
They “think” Oswald wasn’t a sharpshooter and a competent rifleman because someone else said so even though the report says so and all proven evidence found since says so.
They “think”, they do not know. Once again, we are seeing a prime example of the dumbing down of America: They don’t KNOW anything, they just think it, feel it, or read it from someone else with no experience.
It's not that hard of a shot when using the 6 o'clock point of aim at the back of Kennedy's head. Here's a pretty good picture of the downhill slope of Elm Street in Dealey. It is a vary small place, and if you ever get the chance to walk through it, I highly recommend it.
CBS or See B.S. ... Do you really believe CBS???
Nevertheless, please give me the CBS links that back up what you are saying regarding making that rifle shots? I want to see this.
Look we can go back and forth all day on this. You have to ask yourself why would retired FBI agents say there is a cover up? Here is one (Don Adams) talking about how the Warren Commission was full of it. Why would the FBI have a agents coming out saying that there is a cover up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wktzy-8BV8
and here is another for you. The investigation was conducted by retired FBI agents, led by Zack Shelton, a 28 year career FBI agent.
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm
“Communist dont join the United States Marines.”
No, horny 18 year old boys join the Marines. The only communist activity I’ve ever attended in my life was a party that I was invited to by a Marine. His crazy girlfriend put the event together, I ate, argued for a little while before I realized what was going on, then left in disgust. He was smitten and actually tried to defend his girlfriend’s positions. He may not have joined the Marines as a communist but he was definitely heading in that direction.
It’s called I believe a retired FBI agents that have everything to love over politicians any day.
So not only do you have a moving target but a sloping target. That means the trajectory is changing constantly. Trust me not an easy shot with that rifle.
I have owned a number of variations and the fit and finish is of as high a quality as some of the best pre-70 Winchesters I own.
They were far from 'crappy'.
I agree completely. I own one and have examined many others. The Carcano is not as aesthetically pleasing as some other bolt action rifles, but the quality of construction is there. Gun making has been an industry in northern Italy for centuries, so don't underestimate the Italians. The Carcanos were much better made than Soviet bloc weapons.
This one incident pushed me into learning about ballistics, physics, fluid dynamics, and put me onto collecting various firarms over the 40 years or so I have studied this.
After all the wild accusations, the theories of altered photos, altered bodies, altered autopsies, suspicious characters, conflicting testimony, etc, etc, it all comes down to Oswald.
3 shots, 2 hits, all with a capable rifle with a capable shooter.
If you've never walked Dealey to see for yourself the small size and narrowness of the area, we cannot discuss the physics of the shots.
If you've never thought things through completely, depended on others giving an opinion based on the ability to sell a good story, and not base your opinion on facts in evidence, we cannot even begin to discuss the reality of hard evidence versus potential theories.
This incident pushed me into the sciences for an education, it has provided me with a knowledge base to decide for myself the most likely versus the improbable. It has been a long journey through many books, conjectures, times at the firing line competing in rifle and pistol.
For all intents and purposes, anything I say will not convince you of any other option other than your unfounded beliefs. I cannot help you there, only hope you find your answers yourself, and not depend on others who produce entertainment as your answer.
First, I'd like to see the "CBS links" too. You see, CBS did the tests in 1967. Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet, so CBS didn't create links to its tests.
Second, do I have to do everything for you? Just Google the CBS test of the Kennedy assassination. And, yes, you'll find a guy named Michael T. Griffith who claims completely different results for BOTH the CBS test and the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory's test than CBS and the U.S. Army claim.
As Gomer Pyle would say: "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" It turns out Michael T. Griffith makes those claims while trying to sell . . . his conspiracy theory book.
Why did a couple or a few FBI agents come forward and say there a cover-up? I don't know. Maybe they were peddling their own conspiracy books. Or maybe they were just nuts like the rest of the conspiracy theorists, unwilling to believe what all of the evidence has shown us: Lee Harvey Oswald shot John F. Kennedy.
I grow weary of 'arguing' (that's my euphemism for "pointing out facts") with you. Please post your reply. You're welcome to the last word.
I'm sorry, but I'm reading through the thread.
You're wrong. I've told you this before. Oswald's Carcano had a six-shot magazine. You didn't have to reload after each shot. The magazine-feed in Oswald's rifle won't disappear no matter how many times you saw the Carcano had to be manually loaded after each shot. Are we clear on that yet?
And you keep referring to six seconds. Modern analysis of the Zapruder film suggests that the third shot was fired 8.3 seconds after the first.
I'd better jump back in here and point out that I'd written in an earlier post that the movement and downhill slope of Elm street away from the TSBD was determined by the forensic investigators in both the Warren Commission and HSCA to be that President Kennedy's car didn't drift in the sight picture to any significant degree in Oswald's telescopic field of view.
Here's a computer-simulated picture of the view from Oswald's position to the distance at which Kennedy was initially hit with Oswald's second shot at 44 yards, accounting for the magnification power of the Ordnance optics 4x/18mm telescope mounted on C2766, the rifle that Oswald used to murder President Kennedy.
One of the most interesting recreations done I believe was A&E, maybe Discovery, that recreated the shots down to the ammunition used. This is TV, of course, and maybe they were fibbing, but they even got the bullet to land in Connally’s lap just like the real bullet did. The key fact people failed to consider when discussing the “magic bullet theory” was that the rear seats of the limo were something like 6 inches higher than the front seats. Factor that in and it all made sense. I have an original copy of the Warren Commission report. They did a good job collecting information and trying to separate fact from fiction. Their descriptions were precise and accurate enough to recreate the entire scene, and it all falls down to one nutty guy looking to make a name for himself that had the unusual opportunity to shoot a President riding slowly in an uncovered limo in front of a multi story build he worked at.
If anything, from a professional sniper’s point of view, Oswald did a lousy job. A pro would have easily made a head shot under those circumstances on the first shot. Oswald took three shots and missed badly with the first two.
for later
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