Posted on 09/27/2010 1:34:18 PM PDT by marbren
I don't doubt for a minute that all of God's creation is groaning for mankind's redemption.
My point is that such groaning doesn't mean that the entire universe fell when man fell...but that since God's Love and Spirit is infused into the universe He created, the universe (including the angelic hosts) groans with Him at man's fallen nature just as it did rejoice with Him at the Cross and will rejoice with Him at our resurrection.
If I am incorrect, I hope someone will set me straight!
The one that didn’t show is a great one, too. My favorite, I think.
Thanks.
I don’t know that either side can be absolutely emphatic.
It just seems to me that the nature of the wording involves the pollution and then redemption/resurrection/renewal of the whole cosmos.
That’s what I understand the original Greek implies, if not makes plain.
Based on the scanned pages above, I would be mostly in agreement with him except that I would not call a being with a righteous spirit and incorruptible body "fully human."
It makes it plain that the Universe grieves with God for the redemption of mankind. That is all it says.
INDEED.
How about
fully supernaturally-human after the Designer’s Design and goal—IN HIM?
Perhaps you could outline in the verses involved
where
“cosmos” is used and not used??
I think that’s what Alcorn based some of his convictions on.
I stand by my "interpretation". 19-23 NEEDS at least back to verse 17 to get a sense of what's being said. We are children of God, joint-heirs with Christ, if we share in His suffering we will also share in his Glory and the sufferings of this world are nothing compared to the glory to come because right now, everything pretty much stinks for everyone and everything but it's not really all that bad for us because we have hope... by which we are saved. Which is hilarious but totally beside the point, we're talking about aliens about whom we have absolutely no clue.
You're saying these hypothetical aliens must be fallen because of the fall of Adam and I'm saying that doesn't follow because if they aren't descendants of Adam then they can't really share in his fall. And "all creation" includes the angels who didn't fall so obviously there's some nuance here.
Grimsvotn has reached critical thresholds.....keep keepin ur eye on it...!
http://hraun.vedur.is/ja/gps/predorb/gola_enu_p.png
To include the angels in God’s turf that did not choose other than God . . . in the fall . . . is not remotely logical.
To include the cosmos . . . particularly as I understand that’s the word used in some of the critical verses . . . IS logical, to me.
Thx thx.
HOWEVER, none of the above gets into the fact that
THE CRITTERS CHRONICALLY ROUTINELY LIE, LIE, LIE. Even top government whistleblowers have always commented on how routinely they lie. All the best researchers have noted it at one time or another unless they are gah gah new age idiots about them.
On top of that—they rape people against their will.
And, they perform mutilations on humans—alive as long as that works—without anesthetic—identical to the cattle mutilations.
There’s persistent rumors that there’s some sort of brain chemical humans manufacture in a state of terror that is a grand recreational drug to some of the critters.
In any case, such goings on do NOT sound like UNFALLEN critters, to me, at all.
NOTE: Y’ALL, I REALIZE that I’m more or less attempting to drag y’all kicking and screaming into very uncomfortable territory that most of you would rather deny 100% to the end of your mortal days.
I wish it were otherwise. It’s just not. And my duty to God AND TO YOU is to tell you the truth as best I can dig it out and discern it.
THANKS THANKS.
The bottom page ends with Calvin's comment on Romans 8:19...
He teaches us that there is an example of the patience, to which he had exhorted us, even in mute creatures. For, to omit various interpretations, I understand the passage to have this meaning — that there is no element and no part of the world which, being touched, as it were, with a sense of its present misery, does not intensely hope for a resurrection. He indeed lays down two things, — that all are creatures in distress, — and yet that they are sustained by hope. And it hence also appears how immense is the value of eternal glory, that it can excite and draw all things to desire it. Further, the expression, expectation expects, or waits for, though somewhat unusual, yet has a most suitable meaning; for he meant to intimate, that all creatures, seized with great anxiety and held in suspense with great desire, look for that day which shall openly exhibit the glory of the children of God. The revelation of God’s children shall be, when we shall be like God, according to what John says, “For though we know that we are now his sons, yet it appears not yet what we shall be.” (1 John 3:2.) But I have retained the words of Paul; for bolder than what is meet is the version of Erasmus, “Until the sons of God shall be manifest;” nor does it sufficiently express the meaning of the Apostle; for he means not, that the sons of God shall be manifested in the last day, but that it shall be then made known how desirable and blessed their condition will be, when they shall put off corruption and put on celestial glory. But he ascribes hope to creatures void of reason for this end, — that the faithful may open their eyes to behold the invisible life, though as yet it lies hid under a mean garb.Romans 8:19 - "For the intent expectation of the creation, etc."
As I said, I don't doubt the universe groans...I just don't see where the universe itself (including angels) fell from Grace due to man's fall.
Here's two examples where "kosmos" is used to mean the earthly world...
Mat 26:13The Greek used is at source.
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her. Source1Jo 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Source
BTW, I didn't noticed where Alcorn said the universe is fallen, just where it groans (suffers) with God at man's fall from Grace. To further clarify my point. Clearly the universe cracked when man fell (it suffered a broken heart)...I don't doubt that. But I haven't seen where the universe fell concomitantly with man's fall.
Perhaps I missed something?
lol. I haven't been following this thread, but Calvin, Hoekema and a good joke to swipe is worth the read. 8~)
You’re well out of my league.
My understanding is that there would have been better words to use if earth only was the intent of God the author.
Works for me.
THX THX.
Glad you enjoy the humor.
Do you know if that Hoekema is the same one who has done so much religious sociological/psychological research?
I forget.
Oh heck...maybe someone else will take pity on me and clarify this matter.;-)
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