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Never mind that our founders are on record as believing that a state cannot simply secede in the first place.

Link please? EVERY single reference to date says they dont LIKE the idea - not that it is not allowed!

Like never responding to the fact that it was the Confederate Southern forces (before there was actually a Confederate government BTW) who intiated the hostilities by attacking Union forces.

I don't recall that being a point of contention as to whether a state could secede from the Union - but if you insist - IIRC the south fired upon union forces before the union fired upon southern forces. Happy?

then out of that huge list you sent me that is too monotonous to read, pull out one issue that was a valid reason (in your mind) for the secession of the south.

1. It is NOT my job to do your work for you - if you can't be bothered to read - go to DU were they tell you what to think.
2. I do not recall ever stating that I personally felt the south was justified - indeed I specifically wanted to stay AWAY from that as it immaterial to a debate whether secession is "legal". So you can wait quite a while for a valid reason "in my mind".

"I do not recall ever stating that I personally felt the south was justified - indeed I specifically wanted to stay AWAY from that as it immaterial to a debate whether secession is "legal". So you can wait quite a while for a valid reason "in my mind"

Why is it that you and you alone get to set the terms of this debate? Why do I have to answer all of your questions? I finally got you to the crux of the argument and you don't want to make a stand. I'm not interested in some airy debate that would happen at Harvard Yard. I'm interested (on this thread) in defending the actions of Lincoln and the North. That is the whole crux of this thread. You know, Ron Paul blasting Lincoln and blaming the whole Civil War on Lincoln?

As for the founders saying the they cannot secede, we talked about it. As Madison stated except for some intolerable grievance they can't secede. Yet you can't name the intolerable grievance that was created. If you're going to defend the Southern states' actions, then defend them!! Make a stand!!! Give me the intolerable grievance that would justify them being allowed to secede (as Madison talked of). As you have stated, you can't!!

You're not interested in that debate because you know that it has been shown that the South did not have a lawful reason to secede and they started the hostilities. Those are the most important points to refute Ron Paul's idiocy in blaming 600,000 deaths on Lincoln.