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"I do not recall ever stating that I personally felt the south was justified - indeed I specifically wanted to stay AWAY from that as it immaterial to a debate whether secession is "legal". So you can wait quite a while for a valid reason "in my mind"

Why is it that you and you alone get to set the terms of this debate? Why do I have to answer all of your questions? I finally got you to the crux of the argument and you don't want to make a stand. I'm not interested in some airy debate that would happen at Harvard Yard. I'm interested (on this thread) in defending the actions of Lincoln and the North. That is the whole crux of this thread. You know, Ron Paul blasting Lincoln and blaming the whole Civil War on Lincoln?

As for the founders saying the they cannot secede, we talked about it. As Madison stated except for some intolerable grievance they can't secede. Yet you can't name the intolerable grievance that was created. If you're going to defend the Southern states' actions, then defend them!! Make a stand!!! Give me the intolerable grievance that would justify them being allowed to secede (as Madison talked of). As you have stated, you can't!!

You're not interested in that debate because you know that it has been shown that the South did not have a lawful reason to secede and they started the hostilities. Those are the most important points to refute Ron Paul's idiocy in blaming 600,000 deaths on Lincoln.

As Madison stated except for some intolerable grievance they can't secede.

Thank you for conceeding that secession is legal under the constitution.

Why is it that you and you alone get to set the terms of this debate?

I dont. Instead, I asked you politly way back at the beginning if we could limit the discussion and you agreed. If you woluld like to discuss the causes and justifications, I sure others are willing to do so. I have no desire to debate the civil war again and again on these boards - it has been done repeatedly and nothing good every comes of it ...