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To: An.American.Expatriate
"I find no wording from them that actually indicates that it was forbidden to do so. Maybe I missed it ..."

Read Post 78 and read Jefferson and Madison's reactions vis a vis the New England States during their Presidencies. They were considering secession.

"It is a purely theoretical debate whether states / the people can seceed from the union."

I'm not interested in a Lincoln/Douglas debate forum. I'm interested in what exactly happened. Post 78 describes Madison's view on this. He was the main writer of the constitution. When two parties enter a compact, one can't just freely opt out. There's a process. In this case, one side of the parties opted out and then agressively fired on the other party. These are undeniable facts, not classroom rhetoric.

As I've stated many times, the founders felt that a people had a right to break free and form a new government when the existing government was becomming too oppressive. I ask you, what act did the Lincoln administration do in it's first month that was so oppressive as to the people needing to break free? The only thing the Republican party was for was not extending slavery to new states and territories. Was that so oppressive to the Southern states?
302 posted on 08/06/2010 8:30:29 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
As I've stated many times, the founders felt that a people had a right to break free and form a new government when the existing government was becomming too oppressive. I ask you, what act did the Lincoln administration do in it's first month that was so oppressive as to the people needing to break free? The only thing the Republican party was for was not extending slavery to new states and territories. Was that so oppressive to the Southern states?

I'll ask you the question in reverse, what was it about South Carolina and the South in general becoming an independent sovereign nation that was so abhorrent to the North?

303 posted on 08/06/2010 8:52:16 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
Read Post 78 ...

Madison is refering to a state being turned out of the union by the others.

The fallacy which draws a different conclusion from them lies in confounding a single party, with the parties to the Constitutional compact of the United States. The latter having made the compact may do what they will with it. The former as one only of the parties, owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created.

The underlined clause is important. Madison states that a single party (a state) is released from it's bound of fidelity to the union when an intolerable abuse exists.

I have seen written that this means the state must revolt - I don't agree that the state must declare war upon the union in order to assert it's sovereignty - secession is, in effect, the same statement without hostilities.

That "war" is the likely outcome of such a declaration is obvious. It is also obvious that the founders abhored the idea.

316 posted on 08/06/2010 10:45:21 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
As I've stated many times, the founders felt that a people had a right to break free and form a new government when the existing government was becomming too oppressive.

And secession is what? Breaking free and forming a new government!

I ask you, what act did the Lincoln administration do in it's first month that was so oppressive as to the people needing to break free?

I have a hunch that the causes of the the south's anxieties lie a bit further back than Lincoln ...

The only thing the Republican party was for was not extending slavery to new states and territories. Was that so oppressive to the Southern states?

IMHO - and based soley on that statement! - no. But as I already stated, the causes had much deeper roots. You yourself have repeatedly told me to read post 78 - I have read and reread it. Have you stopped to ask yourself WHY SC was discussing secession in 1832? (I don't know myself, but obviously it had nothing to do with Lincoln or the Republicans.)

318 posted on 08/06/2010 10:53:47 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
Post 78 describes Madison's view on this. He was the main writer of the constitution

Actually that was Gouvernour Morris, head of the committee on style.

Madison's reputation as the "father of the constitution" comes entirely from his copious note taking and his vocal advocacy of ratification. Otherwise there is nothing which especially commends his word over the other participants in those debates.

In fact, Madison's early record as a constitutional authority is pretty spotty. In 1794 he attempted to organize a Supreme Court challenge to a new federal excise tax on carriages, after months of railing against its alleged unconstitutionality before the House. The court slapped him down unanimously, as it should have - excise taxes are plainly within the powers of Congress, Madison's claim otherwise notwithstanding.

389 posted on 08/07/2010 9:38:33 AM PDT by conimbricenses (Red means run son, numbers add up to nothing.)
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