Question to Birthers about Grandma Dunham's Alleged Fraud

Vanity

[curiosity]

One of the reasons birthers demand to see Obama's long-form birth certificate (as opposed to the short form already released) is that only the long-form lists the hospital.

Why is the hospital important? Well, birthers claim that if his birth was registered as having taken place at home, then it opens up the possibility that his birth was registered fraudulantly. That is, if he were born in Kenya, his grandma could have gone down to the local registrar, committed perjury by swearing she whitnessed his birth at home in Hawaii, and obtained a birth certificate saying he was born in Hawaii.

Now why would Grandma Dunham do such a thing? Well, birthers say in order to secure US citizenship for her grandson. They correctly point out that Mama Obama was too young to pass on US citizenship to her son automatically had he been born abroad. Therefore, birthers argue, to make sure Bambi got the benefits of US citizenship, Granny risked her freedom and career and committed perjury on his behalf.

There's a gaping hole in this story which birthers have yet to address: the fraud was unnecessary.

While it's true Obama would not be born a US citizen had be been born in Kenya, under section 101 and Title II section 205 of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, in effect at the time, as the minor child of a US citizen, Obama was entitled to a non-quota immigrant visa to enter the US.

Once back in the states, under Title III, section 322 Bambi would be eligible for natuarlization.

So you see, even if Obama were born in Kenya, it was possible to secure his citizenship through perfectly legal means. And no, it was not uncertain because the law explicitly presumed a child of "tender years" would be of good moral character. There were simply no grounds under the law to deny him citizenship once his mother petitioned for it on his behalf.

Yes, it probably would have taken some time for the government to precess the paperwork, maybe a couple years, but who cares? While waiting, Barry would be a permanent resident living in Hawaii with his mom, eligible for virtually all the rights and benefits that go with US citizenship.

So help me out, birthers. If there was no need to fraudulantly register Bambi's birth in Hawaii, what was Grandma Dunham's motive?

A few birthers have said it was to avoid the hassle of naturalization. Okay, let's take that as given.

So Stanely drops Barry in Kenya and sends a wire to grandma, who goes to the local registrar and, after committing perjury, gets a US birth certificate for her grandson. She then sends it to her daughter Kenya by whatever expensive means were available at the time. Great. Now what?

How does that help little Barry? He's still in Kenya and has no papers that would get him admitted to the US. A birth certificate doesn't help. He needs a passport or visa. He can't use the birth certificate for that, either, because a child born in the USA needs to apply for his passport before leaving the country, not afterward. Attempting to use it for this purpose at the US consolate in Kenya would have triggered an investigation and likely uncovered granny's fraud.

So tell me, birthers, what exactly did Grandma Dunham accomplish by committing perjury?

Now compare that to the legal way. Stanley drops litttle barry. She takes her passport and his birth certificate to the US consolate, and obtains a Declaration of Birth of a Child to a US Citizen Abroad. With that document she can get him a non-quota immigrant visa and enter the US without any trouble.

Seems to me the legal way would have involved much less hassle and stress.

So help me out, birthers. What am I missing?

[tom h]

"I traveled to Italy in 1965 and returned in 1969 with my parents. I don't know what he age cut-off was but as a young minor I was allowed to travel with my parents on their passport."

FYI, back then a child would be included on his mother's passport. Meaning, the photo was of mother and child. Trust me, there was an official document certifying you were an American citizen, it just wasn't separate from your mother's.

[marron]

they are cute in not mentioning it to be a Hawaiian long form.

They are doubly cute. You'll remember "way back" the governor said she had seen the BC and said it was in a safe in her office. Recently she ammended that to say she hadn't seen it personally and its in a safe over at Records. The head of Records says they've got it but he/she hasn't seen it personally. At one point they were saying the old documents were shredded decades ago, but they've since backed off on that one, they are back to saying they have it but now no one wants to admit to having seen it.

[marron]

I do not consider myself a birther

I don't actually want to be one, but I've come to notice that when someone acts like they are hiding something, they usually are. What they are hiding may not be what you think they are hiding, but if they act like they are hiding something you can bet that they are.

[Kleon]

And your contention cannot be proved that NO money went to Perkins & Coie that defended Obama in his eligibility cases, which is absurd on the face of it.

I never said no money was paid to Perkins & Cole. But the figure of $2 million that's being thrown around has no basis is fact.

[Red Steel]

But the figure of $2 million that's being thrown around has no basis is fact.

No basis in fact?

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2009 October quarterly report (covers July 1, 2009, to Sept. 30, 2009)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2009 July quarterly report (covers April 1, 2009, to June 30, 2009)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2009 July quarterly report (covers April 1, 2009, to June 30, 2009)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2009 April quarterly report (covers Jan. 1, 2009, to March 31, 2009)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2008 year-end report (covers Nov. 25, 2008, to Dec. 31, 2008)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2008 post-general election report (covers Oct 16, 2008, to Nov. 24, 2008)

I suppose all this money went to Perkins Coie for Obama pom poms and candy. /sarcasm

The Obama campaign raised almost a billion dollars during his presidential campaign and not all of that was spent. All of it is funny money to Obama. What this looks like above is that Obama had a lucrative contract to pay the leftist legal firm Perkins Coie to cover all his legal issues over a period of time. Furthermore, the point made above by lorenC that Perkins Coie covered Obama's donkey-butt out of the goodness of their lefty hearts who "worked pro bono" on his eligibility cases is a ruse. Why gee, I suppose Perks & easy COIn could say that since Obama likely was paying them for unlimited use because of a super lucrative paying contract that covered everything and/or it subsidized the work because of all the funny money that Obama threw at them...for working to produce Obama pom poms and candy.

[Kleon]

There is obviously other legal work the firm is doing for Obama. It makes no sense that $2 billion would be spent on a handful of cases that never went anywhere.

[curiosity]

1) There is no long form birth certificate issued by the state of Hawaii. State officials claim to have in their possession a "long form" BC but they are cute in not mentioning it to be a Hawaiian long form.

That's just silly. What makes you think Hawaii keeps foreign birth certificates?

2) The BC has reference to Obama's religion as Muslim.

Hawaii long-form BC's don't mention religion.

There's a third possibility, which is the simplest of all: he hasn't released his long form because it isn't necessary to prove his eligibility, and those who aren't satisfied with the evidence already in the public domain proving his eligibility won't be satisfied by a long form or anything else.

Ever heard of Occum's razor?

Curiously, however, the article did NOT mention BHO, which is surprising since BHO had worked with that very law firm for years, and was already a United States Senator for the state of Illinois.

Why do you find that curious? Given there is no evidence he was born anywhere other than Hawaii, and plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii, why would you expeect the article to mention him?

What does this mean?

Nothing, except that one of bambi's lawyer friends was interested enough in the topic to write a paper on it.

The attorney was inspired to write the law review article at BHO's request,

How do you she wrote it at BHO's request, or that BHO was involved with it in any way? I haven't seen any evidence to suggest he was. If you've seen some, please share it. Just because your friend writes a paper on some topic doesn't mean you were involved with it or even aware of it.

[curiosity]

It is possible that at the time Obama was born children could still travel on their parents’ passports. This later changed. Our son accompanied my wife and me on a trip to Europe in 1977, when he was 9 years old, and I am pretty sure he didn’t have his own passport until much later.

Yes, that was called a family passport. A parent could have his or her children listed on her passport, so they would not need their own when travelling with the said parent.

However, you had to get your children on your passport before you left the states, and before they were born. Obviously, a pregnant woman couldn't add some child as yet unborn onto her passport. And if your child wasn't on your passport, he couldn't travel with you.

So my basic point stands. If Stanley Ann left for Kenya before Bambi was born, he wouldn't be on her passport, which means he would either need his own, or would need to get added to hers, in order to enter the US. And a US birth certificate wouldn't help in that regard.

So my overall point, as yet unanswered, still stands: fraudulantly registering Obama's birth in Hawaii would be of no use to anyone had he been born in Kenya.

[curiosity]

It is possible that at the time Obama was born children could still travel on their parents’ passports. This later changed. Our son accompanied my wife and me on a trip to Europe in 1977, when he was 9 years old, and I am pretty sure he didn’t have his own passport until much later.

Yes, that was called a family passport. A parent could have his or her children listed on her passport, so they would not need their own when travelling with the said parent.

However, you had to get your children on your passport before you left the states, and after they were born. Obviously, a pregnant woman couldn't a some child as yet unborn onto her passport. And if your child wasn't on your passport, he couldn't travel with you.

So my basic point stands. If Stanley Ann left for Kenya before Bambi was born, he wouldn't be on her passport, which means he would either need his own, or would need to get added to hers, in order to enter the US. And a US birth certificate wouldn't help in that regard.

So my overall point, as yet unanswered, still stands: fraudulantly registering Obama's birth in Hawaii would be of no use to anyone had he been born in Kenya.

[curiosity]

You're making a mistaken assumption here. At the time Barry was born, presumably his mother was married to his father and was planning to go wherever he was going. This certainly wouldn't have made him a permanent resident living in Hawaii,

If she brought him back to Hawaii with her, as we know she did, and he was born in Kenya, then while his naturalization papers were being processed, he'd be a permanent resident.

plus we know they didn't live in Hawaii after he was born — they lived in the state of Washington.

Okay, fine. Then she could have filed for his naturalization papers while living in Seattle, and he'd be a permanent resident while living with her there. I don't see why you're so hung up on Hawaii.

Regardless, why fool with naturalization when you don't know where you're going to be living or if you're going to be living in the United States??

Uh...so he could get the benefits of US citizenship? If there was no reason to bother with naturalization, there would be no reason to bother with a fraudulant birth registration.

How does an unborn baby or newborn apply for a passport??

Simple. His mom or Dad fills it the application, presents a copy of his birth certificate or consular birth declaration, and attaches a couple passport photos of the child.

That's all it took to get my daughter a passport when she was a month old.

This point makes no sense.

What makes no sense? That babies needed documentation to enter the US?

For a newborn baby?? Not following this logic at all.

The logic is very simple. Even newborn babies need documentation to enter the US. In the 1960's, they were typically listed on their parents' faimly passport.

Now if the baby is born in the US, then the mom or dad needs to apply for a family passport, with the child's name, before leaving the country.

So suppose little Barry was born in Kenya, and grandma fraudulantly registers his birth in Hawaii. SAD now has a problem. How is she going to get little Barry documentation?If he really was born in Hawaii, then she would have been required to get him on her passport before they left the country. The fact that they are overseas now, and he has a US birth certificate, but he's not on her passport already, would immediately raise serious suspicions of fraud.

I don't see much evidence that SAD did things the legal way.

Well, there isn't any evidence she did anything illegally, either. But I suppose in your fantasy world, people are guilty until proven innocent.

There's no evidence of her alleged marriage to Barak Sr. except after the fact in a divorce decree.

That's pretty strong evidence! Why in the world would someone pretend to get be married and then go through the expense and hastlle of getting a divorce? That makes no sense!

No marriage license or marriage announcement has even been presented.

Where you would expect it to be presented, to whom, and for what reason?

The permanent address of Mr. and Mrs. Barack Obama listed in the birth announcements was not an address where Barak Sr. was ever known to have resided.

That's a birther myth and is simply not true.

SAD claimed she had a marital relationship with Barak Sr. for two years in the divorce decree, but there's no evidence to support this claim.

What possible motive would she have to claim it if it weren't true?

Why are we to believe she used a 'legal way' to register her baby as born abroad??

Given that there's absolutely no evidence she ever did anything illegally, and that there was nothing to gain from a fraudulant birth registration, yes.

Not at all. Granny claims to witness an unattended birth and gives a few details to the health department.

Okay, suppose Barry was born in Kenya, as you allege, and granny risks her freedom and committs perjury, as you allege, even though there was no rational reason to do i).

Now what? Little Barry's still in Kenya without any papers, and a US birth certificate isn't going to get him any. What good does the fraudulant birth registriation accomplish?

The newly formed state of Hawaii is glad to claim as many citizens as possible.

Nonsense. Birth registrations aren't used to count the population. That's what the census is for.> Why would either quibble over minor details??

Because that's what bureaucrats do.

[curiosity]

In fact BEFORE I ever got to enter the US to even start my “waiting” I had to swear I would not attempt to even apply for “virtually all the rights and benefits that go with US citizenship”

You were an adult. Minor children of US citizens are treated differently.

voting privileges
government jobs

Right, and these things are just soooooo importnat to a baby. LOL

food stamps
welfare
free hospitalization
free medical care
free housing

He'd be eligible for all of these things because of his mother's citizenship.

free college tuition

Right. And a baby's going to be concerned about not getting free college tuition. LOL.

I not only raised my right hand and swore I wouldnt I also had to sign to say I understood that I would or could be deported for doing so...

Again, the process for naturalizaing an adult vs. a minor child under age 2 is not the same thing. Do you seriously think a two year old can be made to swear an oath? LOL.

Now just what law passed between 1961 and 1971 denied me what Barry Soetoro so readily was granted ???

The 1955 immigration and nationality act.

[getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL]

I must live in a dream world because I keep hoping that some good AMERICAN who has the ability to access this document will fall on his or her sword, snatch the record, and help to save this country.

[Non-Sequitur]

bump

[curiosity]

We have discussed this before I guess you missed it. First if we are going to do hypotheticals, what is the situation?

You tell me. You're the one alleging that a birth took place somewhere other than Hawaii. As far as I can tell, all the evidence indicates a Hawiian birth, and there's not a shred of evidence to indicate anything else.

Did Obamas mom go to Kenya to met the "Obamas" then find out he was already married and decided she didnt want to live in a hut for the rest of her life?

You tell me. You're the one alleging he was born there. I don't think SAD ever set foot in Kenya, since there's not a shred of evidence to suggest she ever did.

Did Obamas Kenyan family reject Stanley so she decided to be vindictive and keep Obie to spite them? Did she then have birth in Keny or elsewhere before she could return to Hawaii? Is Obama Sr really the father? Did she go to Canada and have Obie jr? To many variables to come to a conclusion.

Pick whatever scenario you want. There is still no plausible motive to fraudulantly register his birth in Hawaii if he wasn't born there.

What we do know is very few people knew in 1961 about the ability to immigrate and naturalize her child.

How do you know this? What makes you think it's true?

And are you seriously alleging that an educated bank manager like Grandma Dunham wouldn't have the sense to pick up the phone and call an immigration lawyer to find out?

Then what if Obie Sr objected and refused to let her leave Kenya or did he want nothing to do with Obie jr?

And how, exactly, would a Hawaiian birth certificate help her in such a scenario?

What we are sure of is that Obie is hiding something and fighting to keep the truth from being known.

I don't see any reason to believe that.

The question is why. Don't ask birthers why they think he might not have been born in Hawaii, demand that he prove it

He already has shown a document that's regarded as prima facie proof of birth in Hawaii. The state of Hawaii says he was born in Hawaii. That's all the evidence a court would ever require.

If you wish to question the validity of that evidence, then the burnen is on you to prove the Hawaii vital records are wrong. You have no such evidence, nor even any plausible motive, as to why anyone would defraud the state of Hawaii with regards to his birth.

[rolling_stone]

Go back and read the garbagte you responded to me with, straighten it out and I might reply otherwise as it is its just liberal logic that tilts my points to your agenda.I dont like you spinning mmy response and turning it around to fit your agenda. You Fail. You have proved my point.

[curiosity]

In other words, you have no plausible motive for a fraudulant birth registration in 1961.

[rolling_stone]

you dont like my answers so you make up your own...

[Non-Sequitur]

In particular, I wonder how a mediocre high school student who went to a mediocre college in California was able to be admitted to Columbia University and then Harvard Law School.

Occidental College is hardly a mediocre college. It is one of the oldest and most respected liberal arts colleges on the west coast, if not the country. As for how Obama got into Occidental and Columbia and Harvard Law, well, what time frame are we talking about? The 1970's? Does the term 'affirmative action' ring any bells with you? At that time every college in the country was falling all over themselves in their haste to throw tuition aid to any remotely qualified black student in the country.

Barry almost certainly became an Indonesian citizen and probably got an Indonesian passport as a minor.

Under the Indonesian laws in place Obama was not and could not be a citizen.

[rolling_stone]

Under the Indonesian laws in place Obama was not and could not be a citizen.

could you give us a cite for that?

[edge919]

If she brought him back to Hawaii with her, as we know she did, and he was born in Kenya, then while his naturalization papers were being processed, he'd be a permanent resident.

She evidently didn't bring him to Hawaii (we don't that he was brought 'back') until he was about 2. Why fool with naturalization papers when it would have been so easy to get an original birth certificate and fudge the facts??

Okay, fine. Then she could have filed for his naturalization papers while living in Seattle, and he'd be a permanent resident while living with her there. I don't see why you're so hung up on Hawaii.

What?? Hung on Hawaii?? Is that not where Obama claims he was born??

Uh...so he could get the benefits of US citizenship? If there was no reason to bother with naturalization, there would be no reason to bother with a fraudulant birth registration.

I didn't say there was no reason to bother with naturalization. The question is why fool with it when you could get a birth certificate so easily?

The fact that they are overseas now, and he has a US birth certificate, but he's not on her passport already, would immediately raise serious suspicions of fraud.

We don't know that he wasn't on her passport or that he could have been added as born abroad. So far, you've shown nothing to indicate what the rules really were when Obama was born, and we know there are no records of how Obama traveled, such as when he went to Indonesia and returned.

Well, there isn't any evidence she did anything illegally, either. But I suppose in your fantasy world, people are guilty until proven innocent.

Fantasy world?? I just listed several things SAD did that weren't comletely honest which you just ignored Evidently these things aren't convenient to your faither beliefs.

That's a birther myth and is simply not true.

Nonsense. Barak Sr. had two known addresses when he was in college. Neither matches the address in the newspaper announcements. There's no proof he ever lived at that address.

What possible motive would she have to claim it if it weren't true?

I can't speculate on motive. The fact remains that she lived in a different state than he did during the time in which she claimed they were married.

Given that there's absolutely no evidence she ever did anything illegally, and that there was nothing to gain from a fraudulant birth registration, yes.

U.S citizenship for her child. Now you seem to forget that.

Okay, suppose Barry was born in Kenya, as you allege, and granny risks her freedom and committs perjury, as you allege, even though there was no rational reason to do i).

The reason was to get certain U.S. citizenship. Why do you keep forgetting??

Now what? Little Barry's still in Kenya without any papers, and a US birth certificate isn't going to get him any. What good does the fraudulant birth registriation accomplish?

U.S. citizenship. Granny could easily mail a completed birth certificate to SAD and she uses it however she needs to use it.

Nonsense. Birth registrations aren't used to count the population. That's what the census is for.

Sorry, but the Census Bureau, up until more recent years, administered vital statistics reports ... births, deaths, marriages, divorces ... birth reports were specifically used in helping project population increases. Hawaii had a known program for counting Hawaiian births during the years before and after Obama was born, making it pretty easy to get a Hawaiian birth certificate.