Posted on 06/26/2010 6:00:41 PM PDT by US Navy Vet
I like the AK because it is just TOUGH!
Back in the Old Corps, a flak jacket might stop shrapnal from a grenade, but a bullet was gonna go on thru. I suspect a lot of others here still believe that a standard AK FMJ round is unstoppable, barring some miracle. As you pointed out, that's not true, anymore.
Today’s armor plates will indeed stop .308 (much less AK rounds) point blank.
But it comes at a weight penalty.
Joe,
Not sure where to get it, but I do know that you don't want to shoot 77 grain ammo through any of your 1/9 twist barrels.
For a round that heavy you need the 1/7.
It always amazes me how self-important, and therefore totally unable to understand when someone is joking, that some FReepers are...
However, now that the subject is broached, it is unlikely that in the sort of situation where most of us on here would even be using either of these rifles (i.e. TEOTWAWKI type scenarios), sniping is not going to be much used. In an urban/suburban warfare scenario where most fighting will be done at less than 100m range, I'd take the AK over the M-16 any day of the week. I want to kill on first shot, not tumble a glorified .22 into them, and expect that two of the target's buddies are going to drop everything and haul him off to the rear (which was the doctrine that underlay our development of this particular weapon).
Most of the killing in urban warfare today is done by snipers and designated marksmen. The grunts are literally used as "beaters" to move the enemy into sniper kill zones. The grunts rarely see the enemy, but they can move them by sweeping through a neighborhood. Move them right into the sights of the snipers. Urban warfare is becoming a sniper war. Having a rifle that is effective from zero to 800 yards gives you a tremendous advantage over forces who must literally blunder into you to get close enough to put effective fire on you. I don't want a rifle with a max effective range of 300 yards, in an area of combat dominated by snipers with rifles effective at triple that range.
That’s for sure.
I’ve got an M-4 (carbine version of the M-16) and it’s very reliable. In Viet Nam, mine never jammed so long I kept it clean.
My newest toy will be the AR-10, the .308 version of the M-4. I has 20 round magazines and internally, basically the same as the M-14, just a much, much larger round. So you have the accuracy of the M-16 with the increased lethality of the AK.
Amazon link here. Cheap used copies available.
This is where I learned that snipers who are issued bolt action .308 M24s and M40s often CHOOSE to take shots out to 800m with their M-16A5 "designated marksmen rifles" because they are sub MOA accurate, much faster for follow up shots on multiple movers, and deadly with the 77gr Black Hills ammo.
Great book, a MUST READ for all students of modern rifles and warfare.
Spot on, actually changed my thinking a bit.
(Keep in mind, my previous 'likely scenarios' for shooting stuff was basic "Under ten feet, under three seconds, less than three shots")
For sure, you will want to read Triggermen ref’d above. It totally changed my thinking about modern urban warfare.
We're going to lose.
Thanks, it’s now on the list.
Yep, it’s no way to win a war.
But on the bright side, many of our troops there are carrying extremely accurate rifles, as in out to 800 yards. A great example being an M-16A4 or 5 with an ACOG sight, firing the 77gr ammo.
If you’re not going to get air or arty support, it’s at least a very good thing to have rifles capable of seeing and killing the enemy at 2-3 times the distance that the enemy can put effective fire on you.
Somebody is going to write a book about Afghansitan being “the rifleman’s war.” It’s a 180* turnabout from the expectation that all modern fighting would be done by attack helos, fighter-bombers, tanks etc, and the riflemen would just be used for mopping up.
In Afghanistan, the riflemen are fighting the war.
Added thoughts, mostly gleaned from “Triggermen.”
Restrictive modern ROE mean that we can’t level houses with bombs or tank shells because we took fire from that direction. Increasingly, our big guns are taken out of the fight because of the risk of collateral damage.
So who is left on the battlefield who can kill the enemy, after determining 100% that he is the enemy, without killing the noncombatants around him?
It’s the rifleman with the 4X (or better) scope. He can put actual eyes-on the bad guy and zap him, within the ROE. No longer can he call down a rocket or shell to do the job. But at least he does have a basic issued rifle capable of killing at pretty long range, out to 800m. And much further with actual sniper rifles.
The rifleman is becoming the lord of the battlefield in Afghanistan, for better or for worse.
Nothing kills victory faster than politics.
“BTW, tricked out AR-15s in 5.56mm have been cleaning up the thousand yard competitions for years now.”
I don’t doubt that a properly built and tuned AR-15 can hit a target at 1000 yards, but I don’t think a .22 caliber bullet carries enough energy at that distance to be useful.
They do with the right ammo, at least out to 800m. Apparantly the Black Hills 77gr 262 found a sweet spot, where accuracy is retained, but the bullets tumble on impact. (Unlike the 62gr green tips, and their notorious ice pick wounds.)
The proof is that snipers who have at hand a .308 bolt gun or an M16 designated marksmen rifle increasingly choose the M16 out to 800 yards. It’s sub MOA accurate, retains enough power to do the job, and in urban warfare it’s just light years quicker when engaging multiple movers.
“One shot one kill” is in a way a relic of the past, when you have multiple targets and only seconds to nail them before they scatter from view.
Yes, you bet, most casualties are from IEDs. And the single most effective anti-IED weapon is the sniper team, watching possible IED sites. Nothing kills the morale of potential IED planters like IED teams getting killed by snipers.
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