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To: Echo4C

I’ll answer you point by point.

1. Practicing and hitting up to 1000 balls a day is VERY demanding, I’ve done it. PED’s allow you to do it all the time and recover much quicker than you normally would. These drugs have a very beneficial effect in any sport/activity you apply them to. To say they’re not effective is to deny reality, like the lame argument that they didn’t help Bonds/Sosa/McGwire hit a baseball, they sure as hell did. Bonds for instance instead of the natural decline in his later years, he became Superman. He lived the dream of having the brain loaded with all the experience and the fast twitch muscle response he had at 25, even better. Better muscles than ever, combined with his experience and skill instead of a guy who hit 30-35 homers he hits 73 in his late 30’s.

2. You say he’s increased significantly in size, key word SIGNIFICANT, he changed his whole body structure, just like Bonds. Both beanpoles, both turned into monsters. It’s not just about distance, it’s about having better muscles, being able to practice and train longer, etc. It’s also about being able to swing at 80% and get the same distance you had when swinging 90%, being stronger is better, all day, every time, it’s an advantage. I don’t recall him having back problems, I don’t recall that being the reason for the swing change, regardless carrying around all that extra mass and doing all that extra work can lead to other injuries, oh I don’t know like a knee injury.

3. Everything you typed in number 3 is largely MYTH, old wives tales and common excuses for drug users. There are millions of guys who do everything right training wise, nutrition wise, supplement wise, rest wise. There’s plenty of guys, including myself who have worked just as hard or harder than Tiger Woods. The guys whose “supplements” include HGH and/or steroids look like Tiger Woods and Barry Bonds, guys can work twice as hard as those guys and not use drugs and never get the “results” those 2 got.

4. These drug tests are called “IQ Tests” for a reason, you have to be an idiot to get caught. Any pro athlete with the “best” trainers, etc., will always say TEST ME!, that’s why they have the “best”. If not for the BALCO scandal we would still have a bunch of these obvious dopers lying about it. The drug makers are ALWAYS ahead of the drug testers, dummies or guys who make a mistake get caught. The NFL has had “comprehensive” testing for years, the only “list” that would shock me would be the guys NOT using.

5. It’s not hard to believe if you know what to look for. I’m lucky that I know people involved in this area of study, people who regularly show up on TV, are consulted by the NFL and published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Tiger doesn’t even pass the eyeball test, way, way, way, too much mass on his former stick-figure frame, Large, thick, rounded muscles on a beanpole frame that would never support those large, thick, rounded muscles without drugs even if he never played golf and spent every moment working on his body, which with his very busy social schedule he obviously does not do, lol.

Eventually this will play out like Bonds, watch. The “it’s not true unless I see him injecting a Wile E. Coyote sized syringe with ACME STEROIDS on it” will always defend the users. What I’m saying isn’t something that’s shocking, plenty of guys in the know think he’s a user. Tiger is so arrogant he got a little carried away, just like in his personal life. He could have cheated (with the drugs) a lot less and had more plausible denial. He got so jacked and enjoyed showing it off so much and used it as intimidation that it was obvious. He may be fooling a lot of people, but he’s not fooling me. If we had a magic truth serum I would bet everything I own on it, and never break a sweat waiting for the results.


157 posted on 12/05/2009 7:58:25 PM PST by word_warrior_bob (You can now see my amazing doggie and new puppy on my homepage!! Come say hello to Jake & Sonny)
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To: word_warrior_bob
The NFL has had “comprehensive” testing for years, the only “list” that would shock me would be the guys NOT using.

The running backs and linebackers make the Mr Americas from the 50s look small and those guys trained their butts off full time
166 posted on 12/05/2009 8:07:45 PM PST by uncbob
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To: word_warrior_bob

167 posted on 12/05/2009 8:09:55 PM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: word_warrior_bob

“...He may be fooling a lot of people, but he’s not fooling me. If we had a magic truth serum I would bet everything I own on it, and never break a sweat waiting for the results...”

Point by point you are very persuasive. However I’m a bit saddened by how prolific such drug use has become. Just how dangerous is such use in your opinon at the “cheated a lot less level” and the “arrogant” level?


174 posted on 12/05/2009 8:21:54 PM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: word_warrior_bob

And I’ll refute you, point-by-point.

1. While hitting that many balls is demanding at first, your body quickly adjusts (the soreness does go away). Tiger was built to play golf since he was a little kid, and he’s not exactly an old man at 33. I say this as someone who regularly hits hundreds of balls a day in the summer (and would hit more, if I had more money).

2. Significant is relative. Wikipedia lists him at 6’1” and 185. That’s probably not more than 40 pounds above what he weighed when he turned pro. If that’s even close to accurate, I don’t see what the big deal is here. I’m 5’9” and weigh about 180. 10 years ago (a few years after Tiger turned pro) I weighed 140 pounds when I graduated from MCRD Parris Island. Most of what I’ve put on since then has been muscle, and I don’t do any drugs. You’re right in that he didn’t have back problems, he changed his swing with Butch Harmon so that he wouldn’t have back problems in the future, as his reckless swing style back then would have led to. If Tiger is using supplements that help with recovery, as you claim, instead of just ones for strength, then half the tour is. Vijay is known as one of the hardest working guys on tour, possibly harder than Tiger.

3. I’m sorry, Tiger Woods looks nothing like Barry Bonds. Have you ever seen Tiger up close in person? I have, he was less than 10 feet away from me at his tournament here in DC a few years ago. He’s not all that impressive in person, he just looks like a regular guy you’d see who works out a lot in the gym. I’ve also seen multiple NFL players up close, and while some of them were imposing, many of them just looked like Tiger Woods - average weight lifters. 6’1” and 185 pounds does not impress me. I also doubt you train as hard as Tiger.

4. It’s not just the drug testing. It’s the fact that drug purchases can be tracked. The BALCO scandal is a perfect example of this, how many guys were outed in that because their names were on lists, not because they tested positive? The chance of Tiger or one of his trainers getting caught is too high to make it beneficial.

5. Actually, I do know what to look for, as I’m quite a gym rat and have known people who used gear. Tiger does not show the telltale signs of using, like gynecomastia. If you could see him in person like I have, and have spent a lot of time in gyms like I have, you wouldn’t be nearly as impressed with his size. Large, thick, rounded muscles aren’t terribly difficult to get when you lift weights properly and eat properly. Just because he was skinny (like I was when I was younger) doesn’t mean his bones won’t support the weight. In fact, it’s the skinny ones that usually have an easier time. We can eat a lot of junk food that fat people can’t and still put on muscle.


179 posted on 12/05/2009 8:29:40 PM PST by Echo4C
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To: word_warrior_bob

Steroids can also lead to, oh, hypersexuality.


186 posted on 12/05/2009 8:38:35 PM PST by fightinJAG (Mr. President: Why did you appoint a bunch of Communists to your Administration?)
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To: word_warrior_bob

How about Armstrong? He has better than BALCO I think. Tiger took off from the PGA for his knee surgery a week before the PGA started mandatory drug testing. How long would it take the juice to not turn up in a drug test if he stopped?

All of these juicers become black tails or so far outside the standard deviation. McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, looks like Clemens, possibly Tiger and Armstrong.

It is sick to see a guy like Ted Williams who did two tours as a fighter pilot. If he had not done those two tours - he would have the home run record. He did not use juice, nor did HanK Aaron, Babe, Maris and Mickey.

Hitting 1,000 golf balls a day is a killer. Yeah Tiger is a juicer.

Tiger also is the only golfer with major anger issues. Bubba Watson sometimes get snarly but nothing like Tiger.

Jack Nicklaus was not a juicer but he could bomb it. I think it was just the beer at Ohio State.


206 posted on 12/05/2009 8:58:12 PM PST by Frantzie (Judge David Carter - democrat & dishonorable Marine like John Murtha.)
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