Posted on 09/23/2009 6:19:16 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!
First, it was a special order that the customer then backed out of, losing his 15% deposit. Second, the store owner knocked off 15% of the price, since he still had the original deposit money. And third, it's a special factory option that includes both a regular and a threaded barrel at regular prices. That's $130 of threaded barrel that I don't have to buy. (That's also a caliber I never intended to get a suppressor for, but I'm not out one extra dime, yet).
So here's #4 and #5 in the clan, along with their extra threaded barrels.
The Apex Tactical parts are already ordered, and I explained to the store sales people how to spot the engineering changes that are starting to appear on newer-production M&Ps, and what to watch for if anybody brings one in for service. Americans tend to bypass versions with manual safeties, internal lockouts, or magazine disconnects. European police agencies, and some smaller militaries, OTOH, just love those features, and the M&P is even cheaper than a Glock, making the "granny" version of the M&P9 a big seller in Europe.
Now my next big challenge is to get extra magazines. In Europe, nobody has a problem carrying a handgun with just one spare magazine, since nobody expects a firefight to go past a total of 34 rounds per person. Inspired by the professional performance of our elite American agencies, I don't slow down my quest for magazines until I have about a dozen.
As penance, I plan on starting a local chapter of "M&P Anonymous", where M&P mongers can get together and offer mutual support. Or as is more likely, pass around tips and tricks, and discuss the newest stuff out there for this family of handguns. :)
I can’t criticize a man who can count dollars vs value. I agree that you spent wisely.
First, Ruger is delivering small quantities of new products that haven't even hit any of the firearms media sites yet. For example, the new Ruger BX25 extended magazine now has a 2x version, clipped together with a common double spring core, and given the catchy name "BX25x2".
It includes a rubber dust cap to cover the unused set of feed lips. And, oddly enough, costs exactly as much as two separate magazines would cost.
In other earth-shaking news, Ruger has started delivery of a raspberry-colored LCP9, with the hint that other models that come in purple (not, in Ruger's official terminology, "grape") will also appear in raspberry. However, it all tastes like plastic to me.
An article that did appear in the trade press was that, based on the sterling performance of state and local police forces in the various recent crises, magazine capacity now trumps the increased performance of the now-standard .40S&W (except for the 35,000 SiG P229s earmarked for DHS). It seems the latest tactical theory is "better to be outgunned with a puny 9mm, as long as you have a few extra rounds in the magazine". So the current meme being peddled to politicians and purchasing agencies is that a ballistic downgrade to 9mm will provide increased firepower to win the day. Glock already has a head-start with a 100-round C-mag double drum. Perhaps departments will also opt for the full-auto option of the Glock 18, the next time a newspaper delivery truck has to be taken down.
If there is federal money for "infrastructure improvement" to sweeten the deal, expect a lot of .40S&W police trade-ins flooding the market. Despite the mantra of "we don't need to put more guns on the street", they have a high residual value, and will quietly find their way into retail commerce, as they always have. And as all police-trade-ins in the past, they will be sold legally and used legally, just as brand-new production is.
The only difference is that some vey collectable, or vey affordable, creampuffs will be kicked loose, along with the beaters. A wise buyer who has a little bit of knowledge, and a lot of patience, might find some real bargains. Don't forget, police sales do not have the 15% federal excise tax on weapons, so they start out cheaper already.
This is a chance for the little guy to get some benefit from the wining-and-dining, and new fads in tactical theory, that will be quietly going on behind the scenes. If I'm lucky, maybe I can score some items in .357SiG, too. :)
Oh, and I got a call from the store. It seems like someone forgot a FNX-45 magazine on the range, and if nobody claims it by the end of the day tomorrow, I can have it as a minor reward for my store loyalty. Double :) :) !
Good Morning - got a couple of the BX25s, haven’t tried ‘em yet. Did pick up one of those tri-mag holders w/mags and case for 20 bucks. All the mags work fine. I should be looking into the mag covers.
Couple of the fellas showed up with tricked out aka tacticool Ruger 10-22s for pin shooting last time. Range specifies rifles that shoot pistol ammo or .22s are legal to shoot. The rest us showed up with our old wheel guns, not a plan, just an example of GMTA.
My BP buddy got one of those BX25x2 clones sometime ago. He likes it, he is still shooting from stash of 525s priced at $ 8.88. “Those were the days, my friend..”
Currently five bucks a box for CCI SVs and eleven for CCI mini-mags at the range. I buy a box each time I shoot pins (to replace my eight to ten buck a brick ammo I shoot up).
Going to NSSA (North-South Skirmish Assoc) affiliated shoot today at the BP range. Rifle, Carbine and Pistol matches.
Looks like a great design.... Post shooting report desired....please...:o)
Need some hig capacity kneecapping tools for the future...
Enjoy the day my friend...stay safe !
Good Morning - just noticed a safety recall on the Springfield XDs in 45acp and 9mm. The noticed posted the serial number ranges that were included. Might be worthwhile to check it out if you have a XDs.
The local gunshop closed this past week. The ‘garage sale’ yielded a few bargains but in the bigger picture we hated to see it go. The little guy doesn’t have much of a chance again the big stores, or the gun shops that have a range.
Will be sighting in a couple of BP pistols for a friend next week. Powder.Patch.Ball (in that order).
Have a good Labor Day Weekend. OB
We are lucky to have a good one.... We only buy from him and his wife vs the big box outlets ....ammo can be more expensive at our mom and pop gun shop but its open, always had ammo during this drought. I will go look at a gun show or big box store for what I want if my local gunslinger doesn’t have it in stock. Then I will order it from them after I road test it at the big box show and tell......
Keeping small local gun shops open is important. I don’t need a corporate pos dictating what I can or can’t buy and when .
A coworker tried to buy 2 cases of dove loads from GANDER on the 16th of Aug because the salesman said they had it in the warehouse and it would be in the store for him in a week. He paid up front per their policy. Called em yesterday and they said nope, they didn’t even order it and as their computer said it was in the warehouse the manager of that store said the computer shows stuff in stock in the warehouse even when it isn’t .... The order was never made. My coworkers dove season was almost ruined as he was traveling to a different location on vacation to hunt.....
Had it not for yours truly giving him two cases from my reserve stock of personal dove loads he would have been up the creek.
Ganders has continued over time to mislead and out right lie to customers. They had a silly policy recently where they wouldn’t sell customers a box of .22 ammo unless ya bought a firearm to shoot it.... They had 200 boxes on the shelf yer when a fired counted they were 15 firearms in the displays and racks that were .22’s.....
We don’t even go to ganders for show and tell previews these days.... Sooner they go out of business the better in my opinion.
I will order direct from manufacturers or midway / brownells if Mom and Pop don’t have it vs the big box corporate companies.
On a scale of 1-10 I give that company a minus 9 on customer service.
Stay safe ....
Still, one of the high points was a large shipment of corporate demo guns from CZ-USA. Just about one of everything, except for military items. While they have all been fired a small amount, most of their time was spent hanging on the walls of the corporate sales room.
As a favor for me, they processed the CZ 97BD first through their inventory system. Starting tomorrow, more and more of the treasure trove will be put on display. I hope I don't succumb to some long gun that I would find totally uninteresting except for the super-fancy French and Circassian walnut that CZ still manages to score on a diminishing basis.
The 97BD appears unfired and NIB, but examination of wear on the breech face and contact areas of the barrel suggest perhaps 100 rounds or so have been shot through it since it was built in 2009. Here's the first magazine I fired through it.
As with every other CZ I own, if the hole ain't in the black, I know it's my fault, and not the gun's. Still, not too shabby for the first shots, although my skill melted quickly in the sauna-like climate of the range, so the remaining 40 rounds of .45ACP were blasted away rather quickly. The target is also typical of someone unfamiliar with a new weapon. The first long pull goes low and left, while the shorter pulls tend to cluster where you want them.
While I was sweating on the range, the salespeople were outside in air-conditioned comfort, putting out a large assortment of CZ products, ordered in February, on the shelves. While checking them in, no pun intended, someone noticed that the store received three unannounced, unnamed, unpriced, unlisted CZ75B 9mm compacts from the CZ skunk works in an undisclosed Arizona location. The store owner immediately called CZ-USA in Kansas City, KS, and thanked them for the surprise, but still wanted to know what the hell was going on.
After a conference with the spooks in AZ, everyone agreed this was a new product, one of many variations on sporting and defensive handguns, that the Custom Shop makes. An official name will be decided when someone writes the official docs that will go with it. Right now, it's just another new variation of the compact 9mm CZ75 BDL-R, which translates into quite a mouthful of codewords already.
The important thing was they got an MSRP, SRP, and dealer cost on it, and a good guess at an acceptable model name for the 4473 and MI state police records. About then, I semi-oozed off the range, just to be waved over to the counter to get the first customer peek at an alien CZ75 that had just landed. In fact, they were the first three in dealer hands.
I said I wanted one of the three, leaving one for the display case, and one for sale, unless the boss scarfs that one up before some customer. Then I asked how much it cost. I had to severely deplete the one-month stash of cash that DHS "suggested" we all keep, but I was able to drive home with it in its hot little plastic case. I haven't shot it yet, but the test target suggests it's like other CZ products, as close to perfection that talented mortals can make. Here it is, along with my CZ 75 D, which was, up until then, the most accurate box-stock 9mm I ever saw.
That's a five-shot group, although it looks like two went through the same hole. And while it's far more than needed for defense, it becomes one of those firearms that quickly makes itself an extension of your brain, and therefore provides priceless increases in skill and confidence. And I rationalized that any crisis that requires a month's supply of paper money on hand will be bad enough that a month's worth of supplies and firepower will be much more useful.
And my new advice for anyone getting a "first" handgun, or upgrading, is to snag any model CZ you can, even if it's in a caliber or style you don't think you'll like. You'll become a believer before the first box of ammo is expended. Otherwise, get a Smith & Wesson M&P in any caliber you can, although some calibers will fit your needs better than others. By the time you become expert enough to notice the M&P's slight shortcomings, you'll either be able to install the custom parts yourself, or find someone with two and only two thumbs to do the job.
With a CZ, about the only thing you can add is bling, if that's your style. There's at least a dozen makes and models of top-tier handguns I'd use with complete confidence. I just find it more satisfying to get Corvette performance at Chevy Cruze prices, rather than settle for just the Cruze. Both will get the most important job done, but planning ahead gives you the benefits of a better selection, and no panic buying.
Question: Rock Island Armory; pursue, or flee? CDT
I have no experience with RIA products, so I can't say anything one way or another about them. I do know, however, that Remington, S&W, Sig, CZ (Dan Wesson), and Kimber all make good clones, along with genuine Colts. All have dozens of models and options, with prices varying. I would say the best bang for the buck are the basic models of Remington and S&W, although they also come tricked-out at higher prices.
YMMV
I own one very old CZ75 and have fired at least 10,000 rounds “each” thru it and my browning high power.... During my active duty EOD career we would get what is called an ammunition destruct request (ADR) to burn on our range a “suspect” lot of ammunition. Sometimes that lot was a semi trailer of 9mm, 45 auto, 7.62mm, 12 ga, etc etc .... Pallet after pallet.
Well not all of it was burned in a dunnage and diesel soaked pit initiated by thermite grenade stacks from a safe distance per SOP.
We would shoot sub guns, rifles and pistols till our thumbs bled from loading magazines. We would practice adjusted point of aim shooting with handguns. Yes a 9mm or 45 auto can be put on a 55 gal drum at 400 yards 10 for ten. Think artillery...find your point of aim and wind etc and lob em in. Fun stuff.
We would hang 12 bowling pins on a clothes line type setup and each man would get 6 magazines. The first hit on the pins hanging on the line set them all in motion and the game was on. It was point shooting, speed reloads and gamesmanship at its best. Last man with ammo left was the winner as you had to hit all 12 pins before the next shooter stepped in. You hit 12 straight....you holstered and stepped quickly away from the firing line. Next man runs up to the line and continues the assualt on said moving pins.
Then we decided to bring out a clay pigeon thrower and try sporting clays with handguns. Nothing fancy, just point shooting . Best I ever did at that was 3 out of ten....:o)
End of the day we had done out job, initiating the ADR burn and then destroying other cases with our personal and issue firearms while we monitored the burn on our range..... Didn’t want to burn tijeras slims mountains down.... PJ’s did that more than a few times....:o)
Point was / is that the CZ 75 is still one hell of a handgun. Had a few of the spare magazines I left loaded and didn’t touch for years. No spring set or malfunctions of old IMI ball ammo in the CZ. Slow fired one and rapid fire dumped the other two. No jams......
I want a new CZ rifle. Been thinking of such for some time. Now that ya reminded me of their 5A sources of walnut....damn. My bank is in danger....:o)
Awesome products from CZ.
Stay safe y’all !
A new term has popped up within the last couple of weeks, because I never saw it used prior to last week, and I've been looking for 27 years, and I should know. It's called "CZ75 pre-B model", and so far it has been used magazines and a few other parts.
I was suspicious, but the process of elimination seemed to hint strongly that these were parts that were intended to work only with the long-forgotten original CZ75. Sure enough, the magazine worked perfectly with the old warhorse, whereas current "B-series" mags are too wide by a few thousandths to work in the older weapons. As quietly as someone killed off the original 75 series, they resurrected magazines and a few other parts with only an ambiguous description and a new part number.
Here's the current state of the CZ75 world of 9mm magazines:
On the left is the stealth CZ75BD-R unnamed and unannounced product from the CZ Skunk Works, along with older and newer Mec-Gar clones, and the new CZ-marked 26-round extended magazine, which will work in both generations. On the right is Old Warhorse, the new "CZ75 pre-B" mag, and one of the original GI magazines. The original magazine does not have a second cutout for a reversed magazine release button, and has fewer witness holes. But after 27 years of diligent searching, it seems to have snuck back into town as quietly as the old handgun left. I feel I'm completely justified in saying, "where have you been these last 27 years?"
Looking at the progression of magazine base plates, it looks like CZ has stopped using the flat plate-only floorplate, and is phasing in the slightly thicker ones with the plastic semi-bump pad, which provides slightly better comfort at the price of a bit of plastic sticking past the butt. This applies to all magazine models for their other handguns, too. And the hard plastic base pad is giving way to a semi-squishy plastic version that will protect the magazine a bit better from drops, and let you rest the gun on some hard surface for a bit more support when firing.
It will also show up scrapes rather than dents or discoloration. Everything is a tradeoff, but it appears all the CZ handgun magazines will have the soft(er) pads as current inventories are used up. If you can't wait for attrition, the soft base pads are available for $4 each right now as a separate part.
This week's plan is to use the standard 75B compact, the most accurate 9mm I've ever owned prior to the spook model, along with a half-dozen extended mags. That's quite a bit of ammo in a small number of magazines. The 75B "spook model" is definitely more of a race car, with even more accuracy, and noticeably improved handling. The "stock" 75B is as tricked out a "sporty car" as a GM assembly line can produce, while the "spook 75" is a definite Corvette Z01 from the skunk works that produce other custom GM race and race-y cars. Mine is probably their cheapest entry-level model, but it provides a good taste of what their fully tricked-out models can do if you can afford them. They were even kind enough to provide an unofficial tip that the "pre-B" sears are shorter than the current ones, and provide a drop-in replacement that will shorten and lighten trigger pull on some new-model 75s without voiding the warranty.
The more you know about CZs, the easier it is to spot the difference in performance that their custom shop provides. And a box-stock CZ is still the best damn value for the money of anything on the American semiauto market, in whatever caliber you care to pick.
RIA = great value
Cheap and ‘lose’ so don’t expect a super tackdriver target gun. But it too me years or shooting it before I could ‘out shoot’ the gun. The ‘lose’ tolerances ‘by the standards of the higher priced makers’ actually mean it is less prone to jamming. I don’t think mine has ever jammed, while my SA 1911 had a breakin period. If you want a great deal on a reliable gun that is accurate at normal handgun combat distances then grab one. Also Armscor is the same brand (like ford and mercury).
I got mine after my SA and was not at all disappointed.
I have not sent mine in yet but I did see that recall. Mine is on the list so I need to get it sent off.
Always sad to see a local store close.
My old shootin’ buddy just picked up a used one nice one in 9mm. Acceptable trigger pull and reliable with both Ruskie -Wolf etc and the high priced stuff. We shot it at our local range pin shoot last night. This one had black sights on it and thus not kind to my bifocaled eyes. I needs a white or dayglow sight. Good value 1911 clone.. YMMV
Nice CZs. I’ve almost pulled the trigger on one more than once. Shot a CZB-D (rental) a couple of times. I liked it, a lot. But not quite enough to sell the P-220 9mm.
Great post on the evolution of a fine handgun. I’ve noticed the floor plate evolution on Sigs as well.
We did what you said a few years ago about practicing with handguns at a couple of hundred yards. I can now say with surety that I strike a man sized target at 200 yards with my Colt Series 80. We didn’t believe it could be done, but you were right! It’s not only possible, but not to terribly difficult once you learn how to adjust. :-)
One unexpected treasure that followed me home is this new CZ612, attired in a manner that Joe Biden would definitely not approve of.
I bought it for a couple of reasons, despite the fact that I have enough defensive shotguns already. One, it's a CZ, even though the plastics appear identical to those used on other brands. Two, it costs less than a comparable Mossberg.
But Number Three, it was September 11, I was in a foul mood for a number of reasons, and this was my way to stick my finger in a number of eyes simultaneously. This put a smile back on my face.
A future upgrade will be a 1x optic, since the stock design pretty much takes this out of the upland-game game. A magazine extension tube, if I can find one. And a Carlson breecher tube, which also acts as an ultra-open choke, something handy to know for anyone who owns a shotgun with one of those funny "hole saws" on the muzzle.
While I wasn't paying attention, apparently a number of manufacturers are building shotguns in this configuration, making it hard to discern the brand from a few feet away. Probably as part of "lessons learned", high-viz rifle sights, a bit of receiver rail, pistol grip, and breecher tube are now considered standard equipment on defensive shotguns. But none of the features Joe Biden has on his, like two barrels, exquisite engraving, and a custom-fit AAAAAA grade walnut stock.
In other news, I finished installing "drop-free" magazine brakes on all my CZ handguns (it's impossible to own just one, but now at least I know what to remain on the lookout for), although a few now come with them right from the factory. Ordered enough rubber baseplates for CZ75 mags that still had the plain steel ones on. Newer models either have plastic or rubber overmolded onto the basic steel plate, and for good reason. Less chance of damage if one hits the ground during a fast reload, and soooooo much easier on the hand when you firmly slap the magazine into the weapon.
Planned for this week include a comparison between the CZ-97DB and my hand-tweaked S&W M&P-45, and the CZ Custom Shop 75B compact "spook" and my hand-tweaked M&P-9. In each case, I expect the CZs to win, but I'm always interested in seeing how my tuneup efforts work on the S&Ws.
And what I learned working on the guns have made me a better (although still needing a long way to go) shot on the range. Many of my problems that I thought were my fault alone turned out to be a combination of me, the gun, and sometimes a particular brand of ammo. When I knew I built a more accurate weapon, my own problems become more obvious, and easier to improve. I also learned that the instinctive confidence I developed in the weapon in the shop and on the range will help me in a crisis.
I benefited greatly from extensive use of several brands of handguns, all of which have something positive to recommend them. They also taught me how to appreciate what's present in the CZ line, and what could be done with the S&W M&P line with a little money, and a lot of sweat equity.
Even for personal protection, if someone asks me for the best no-brainer choice in a handgun, I would recommend whatever model and caliber of CZ you like the best. It may not look it, but the performance is already built-in to take you to the competition level, if you're ready to put it to use. You can't "outgrow" it until you are serious about taking home trophies.
A lot of people bought weapons "just to get by" in case of troubles. The wise ones will later recognize that developing their skills improves their chances of "just getting by". Sometimes they will buy an upgraded weapon after gaining experience with the first one, which is how most people learn, if they learn anything at all. But the CZ is already waiting for you at the next level, if you're willing to work, which has to be done for anything worthwhile.
Some clown with a string of flashing yellow and red lights gets a low-level tech job as a contractor, a secret clearance (everybody gets one of those, just so they can be in an office that might have something classified in it), uses his new ID to badge himself in, shoot a couple of the armed rent-a-cops, and takes their more effective weapons. He then starts killing panicked people as they wonder where their guaranteed safety is.
Of course, then anti-defense ghouls (who live behind a wall of security much more effective than Navy headquarters has), then comes out and says this proves they have to take away more guns from the people that didn't bring a gun to work, because of their elitist laws.
After encountering an armed intruder in a "high security" office once, I think I need a protection upgrade. (There was an armed guard behind some thin glass right outside the elevator on our floor. The bad guy got off the elevator, the rent-a-cop saw his revolver, buzzed him in, and was never seen again.) If I ever have another job again, I'll remove the snacks and pop from the big bottom drawer in my desk, and store this underneath a thin layer of obsolete motherboards.
I don't like the idea of being out-gunned by the weapons the company provided to keep the peons safe. I also expect "executive protection" will be upgraded even further when nutcases can overcome your first, and only, line of defense.
And if the Witches of Washington don't like it, let them dismiss their praetorian guard and live like the peons do, just to set an example.
Where’s the recoil spring on that beastie? I’ve got a PTR in the other room, and I’m just trying to visualize it. Thanks in advance! :-)
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