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To: PeaRidge; Non-Sequitur
"In his message to Congress in December of 1860, President Buchanan denied the right of any state to secede, but he also denied the right of the government to force any State to remain in the Union."

I thought I'd asked a reasonable question, and this is a half-way reasonable answer (but only half). President Jimmy Doughface Buchanan -- a Northerner with Southern sympathies, from Franklin County, PA, that's the one just south of my home.

So the Union was sending out mixed signals, but what were Southerners saying? Did they really expect to secede without war? Were they eager for war, or eager to avoid war? Were they trying to negotiate differences, or make military demonstrations, for example, at Fort Sumter?

"There had not been secession before, nor any law requiring war to follow, so your contention that Southern leaders knew full well... that war would follow is not only an invalid conclusion but a pejorative accusation."

A pejorative accusation? But is it true? Can you quote Southern leaders advocating secession but claiming there was no reason to expect war, and the South would do everything possible to avoid war?

Indeed, isn't it a fact that President Davis was clearly warned ahead of time that firing on Fort Sumter must necessarily lead to war, but did it any way?

Here's my point -- all the evidence I've seen says the South not only expected war, they were eager for it, and had no problem with the idea of firing the first shots and making the first attacks. And the obvious reason was, they fully expected to roll over those panty-waste Northerners: just give them a good hard boot, and they'll be gone in few weeks...

"And with regard to Lincoln, it was he who threatened the South with war in his first inaugural, six weekws later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor, and a few days later declared war on the South via blockade."

Oh, my, PeaRidge... you never read Lincoln's First Inaugural, did you? Come on, pal, get a grip on reality.

Here's Lincoln's First Inaugural. Read it, then apologize for lying about Lincoln:

Lincoln's First Inaugural Address

"six weekws later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor"

Actually, it was President Doughface Buchanan who first sent the steamer Star of the West to supply Federal Fort Sumter, back on January 9, 1860. The South fired on that ship, preventing supplies from reaching the Fort. Fort Sumter then had enough food to last until April 15.

So President Lincoln merely repeated Buchanan's action, but this time with naval warships. The first ship arrived on April 11, and next morning Confederate batteries opened fire on Fort Sumter.

Bottom line: there was no serious effort by the South to negotiate a peaceful settlement at Fort Sumter.

"and a few days later declared war on the South via blockade"

And by the way, the North never "declared war" on the South.

713 posted on 06/24/2009 2:10:46 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: BroJoeK; PeaRidge
...six weekws later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor...

Yes, it was so secret that Lincoln sent a letter to Governor Pickens explaining exactly what he was going to do.

Link

715 posted on 06/24/2009 2:25:13 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: BroJoeK
And by the way, the North never "declared war" on the South.

When you get right down to it, the confederacy never declared war either. In spite of the fact that the attack on Sumter was certainly an act of war and in spite of the fact that the cabinet agreed on it well in advance and in spite of the fact that the confederate congress was in session, no attempt was made by Davis to get a declaration of war from congress ahead of time. But then again, observing their constitution was not something the rebels found important.

717 posted on 06/24/2009 2:27:40 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: BroJoeK
Well, let's get the simple matters out of the way first.

With regard to your contention:

"And by the way, the North never "declared war" on the South."

I said that the North declared war on the South via blockade.

On April 19, Lincoln issued his proclamation blockading Southern ports. It provided that "a competent force will be posted so as to prevent entrance and exit of vessels" from the ports of the states in rebellion. Then, to make the proclamation official, he signed this document, authorizing "the Secretary of State to affix the Seal of the United States to a Proclamation setting on foot a Blockade of the ports of the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas." The seal was affixed to the blockade proclamation, which was announced that day. It was a de facto declaration of war by the Union against the Confederacy.

http://www.raabcollection.com/manuscript/Abraham-Lincoln-Autograph-7590.aspx

Lincoln was aware that the blockading of ports was an act of war. In fact, since an act of war is, by implication, taken against another state, some in his cabinet argued that a blockade would constitute a tacit recognition of the sovereignty of the Confederacy, something the North wanted to avoid. Lincoln was less interested in the legal definitions than in the military utility of the plan, and he approved it despite the objections.

So, he did three things with this proclamation:

1. He established a state of war on the South,

2. In this effort he formally recognized the Confederacy as an independent entity,

3. He caused the secession of the upper South, thus irreversably bringing on war.

719 posted on 06/24/2009 2:54:56 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: BroJoeK
First, your opinion of Buchanan, too obvious the ad hominem attack that it was, changes nothing. He said what he said, and that was that as President, he did not have the authority to force any state to remain in the Union.

Southerners were saying exactly the same thing....and you know that. You also know that repeated attempts were made to solve the situation peacefully.

You said: “A pejorative accusation? Can you quote Southern leaders advocating secession but claiming there was no reason to expect war, and the South would do everything possible to avoid war?”

Of course I can. How many quotes would suit you?

You said: “Indeed, isn't it a fact that President Davis was clearly warned ahead of time that firing on Fort Sumter must necessarily lead to war, but did it any way?

What is more to the point is that the Union was warned that any attempt to enter Charleston Harbor would be considered an act of war. Didn't Lincoln do it anyway?

And you say: “Here's my point — all the evidence I've seen says the South not only expected war, they were eager for it, and had no problem with the idea of firing the first shots and making the first attacks....

That is essentially stereotypical popular media revision poppycock.

You said: “you never read Lincoln's First Inaugural, did you? Come on, pal, get a grip on reality.”

Apparently you failed to read this: “The power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and impost but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using force against or among the people anywhere”.

Political leaders in the Confederacy recognized that Lincoln was pledging to hold Ft. Sumter, and use the military to do so. This President was prepared to use coercive military action on states that left the Union.

And you know it is a fact that “six weeks later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor”

You said: “Bottom line: there was no serious effort by the South to negotiate a peaceful settlement at Fort Sumter.”

Bottom line. Not true.

Do you know the names Martin Crawford of Georgia, John Forsyth of Alabama, and A. B. Roman of Louisiana and where they were on March 7, 1861?

760 posted on 06/25/2009 12:40:20 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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