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To: rustbucket
"I think the first real Union was the Confederation formed under the Articles of Confederation in 1781. Before that, the Continental Congress acknowledged in 1777 in the document I linked to in post 1658 that the states were sovereign and independent. The Continental Congress was not sovereign. It was just an association that colonies or states could listen to or not, as the case warranted."

The first real Union? Your opinion of what is real or not real is a matter of interpretation.

Of course the First Continental Congress was a modest, humble beginning. But even it took some important actions in the name of the united colonies:

Admittedly not much, but a start -- an embryo, so to speak, which in due time grew to be the United States.

The Second Continental Congress had a longer list of accomplishments, even before the Declaration of Independence, incluing:

Indeed, Lincoln's simple equation was that Congress equaled the Union -- however small and weak, such as it was -- it was the start.

Anyway, this is what Lincoln argued in effect, saying: "The Union, and not [the States] themselves separately, procured their independence and their liberty."

So,

It was the Union which created the States, and visa versa. Without one there could not be the other.

1,754 posted on 07/28/2009 3:59:32 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: BroJoeK
The first real Union? Your opinion of what is real or not real is a matter of interpretation.

And Lincoln's opinion was not?

So,

in 1776 the Union declared the Colonies "free and independent States."

Then in 1777 the Union acknowledged "sentiments and interests of a continent divided into so many sovereign and independent communities"

But reality was: those erstwhile colonies were NEVER out of the Union -- both by choice and necessity.

That's because, as Old Ben Franklin quipped in 1776, on signing the Declaration of Independence, "we must all hang together, or most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

I take issue, of course, that it was the "Union" doing all that. If they were already united in a Union, why would this supposed Union say we need to be "uniting all our councils" [their words] as it did in asking the "sovereign and independent communities" to agree to the Articles of Confederation? If the states were sovereign, as the Continental Congress said they were and as King George III later agreed in the Treaty of Paris, then they were not subject to subject to control by the Continental Congress. They were sovereign, not the Continental Congress. I agree with Paul Johnson (whom I quoted to you before) that the states made themselves sovereign.

Since you argue that colonies were never out of the Union, perhaps you would like the 1833 speech of Daniel Webster where he argues that states were never out of the Union [Link]

However, before you accept Webster's arguments, you might also be interested in the following quote from George Washington. [Source: the records of Congress, August 22, 1789:

The President of the United States came into the Senate Chamber, attended by General Knox, and laid before the Senate the following state of facts, with the questions thereto annexed, for their advice and consent:

... "As the Cherokees reside principally within the territory claimed by North Carolina, and as that State is not a member of the present Union, it may be doubted whether any efficient measures in favor of the Cherokees could be immediately adopted by the general government ..."

And further along that line of reasoning, here is something from Congress on September 12, 1789:

And be it further enacted, That all rum, loaf sugar, and chocolate, manufactured or made in the states of North Carolina, or Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, and imported or brought into the United States, shall be deemed and taken to be subject to the like duties, as goods of the like kinds, imported from any foreign state, kingdom, or country are made subject to.

The US treated North Carolina and Rhode Island as foreign countries. Why would they do that if North Carolina and Rhode Island were never out of the Union?

1,763 posted on 07/29/2009 6:30:06 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: BroJoeK
I didn't expect to see any WBTS monuments on my most recent trip out of town. On the trip I visited Fort Griffin in North Texas. The fort was founded in 1867. Not much is left of the fort, but there was a flag flying there, apparently a flag of one of the units that had served at the fort after the war. Here is a picture of the flag:

This was a flag of the "11th Reg. G Co. U.S. Inf." and the battles shown on the flag were the following:

Rappahannock Station
Mine Run
Wilderness
Spottsylvania

North Anna
Tolopotomoy
Bethesda Church
Petersburg

Antietam
Fredericksburg
Chancellorsville
Gettysburg

Weldon Railroad
Peebles Farm
Hatcher’s Run.1st
Hatcher’s Run.2nd

Boydton Road
Gravelly Run
Five Forks
Appomattox, C.H.

I wonder if any soldier survived all those battles.

On the trip, I did learn that in the late 1850s Robert E. Lee had served as commander of Camp Cooper a few miles NW of Fort Griffin. Camp Cooper was right in the middle of the Clearfork Comanche Reservation.

1,781 posted on 07/30/2009 12:32:29 PM PDT by rustbucket
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