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To: Mamzelle
IIRC part of the STRP was having experts on ancient fabrics examine it. After detailed examination their conclusion was that the fabric was made in a way that fit the period of Jesus. I don't have a reference at my fingertips, but I belied it was so.

Also, I believe the discovery channel show is a rerun, either that or I read a long writeup on it online months ago as the tale of Ray Rogers' end of life discovery had been mentally filed as old data.

The article here linked to a recent piece in the UK Mail on this. The Telegraph and the Sun there also have current articles on this. The latter included one interesting bit I either hadn't known or had forgotten. Apparently in 2002, 5 years after the Turin Cathedral fire and rescue, bugs were found within the case and the shroud was cleaned with a strong insecticide. Thus contaminating all of it with modern carbon atoms and obviating future carbon dating of new samples. However the church may have some small separate samples that might offer chances for testing, although the Sun didn't give any details on those samples and whatever technical problems they may add to the saga.

God works in mysterious ways and I've long believed He values FAITH and acts to preserve both the possibility and the need for it. Assuming for the sake of argument that the Shroud is Jesus's Shroud consider how both the impressions of the faithful and of people in general have evolved over time. The early reports of the Mandylion (which recently found Vatican records support being what we now call the Shroud) focused on the visible image, accepted it as a miracle and didn't consider the mechanics of the miracle because people then didn't consider such. They were enough impressed by it to change religious art of Jesus to match this image. The visible like positive image is known to be slowly fading, which means it used to be darker. As thought became more modern interest in it faded with that image until the new science of photography restored interest and faith in it. With STRP modern science analyzed it in many independent ways, nearly all of which supported the concept of it being real. The 3-D image analysis was as instantly striking as the first photograph had been. Historical fabric analysis, analysis of pollen on it, confirmation that there was blood and of a type common to that time and place and in a pattern fitting the story was strong for those who could follow it. Evidence that the image itself fit the crucifixion story anatomically in ways prior generations couldn't have understood, and proofs that it wasn't painted were strong to the scientifically oriented. For those less scientific the mere statement of the scientists that after ever they could think of they had no idea how it was produced strongly supported their faith. But when all this risked removing the need for faith up came the medieval carbon date, and all but the most faithful believed the god of science rather than the God of miracles. Continued efforts by those most faithful is removing the prior carbon test doubt, but events in the interim may block a carbon test from providing supporting evidence in its place. How very clever of Him!

I wonder what technicality will prevent DNA testing from matching the Shroud's blood with that of the Sudarium of Oviedo, which the faithful accept and which current knowledge leaves plausible as another of Jesus's burial cloths. Or will God allow a DNA match some day. Their blood types are known to match, AB. Although the Sudarium also has some carbon dating issues to overcome, a DNA match with it would force any forgery theories back to before either were documented to exist, at least before the early 600s. When most forgery theories aren't going to sound very plausible. Other than someone torturing and crucifying some one else as per the Bible account, wrapping that body to stain both and managing by unknown science to produce the image we now see.

23 posted on 04/10/2009 11:04:43 PM PDT by JohnBovenmyer
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To: JohnBovenmyer

“belied” = believed


24 posted on 04/10/2009 11:06:08 PM PDT by JohnBovenmyer
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To: JohnBovenmyer
Other than someone torturing and crucifying some one else as per the Bible account, wrapping that body to stain both and managing by unknown science to produce the image we now see.

When it comes right down to it, there doesn't seem to be any way to prove conclusively that it is or is not the image and bodily fluids of Jesus Christ.

So, those inclined to believe will have room for belief, and those who don't wish to believe can dismiss it. That is the way I prefer it too.

28 posted on 04/11/2009 12:01:46 AM PDT by Dianna (Obama Barbie: Governing is hard.)
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To: JohnBovenmyer; Mamzelle
The visible like positive image is known to be slowly fading, which means it used to be darker.

Actually, it is apparently the other way around. The image color is consistent. The chemical, a melnoidin, that makes up the image "picture elements" does not fade or change with time... but the LINEN does darken with age, getting browner. As it ages it more-and-more approaches the color of the brownish melanoidin of the image. In the past, the brown image would have had much more contrast with the white linen. Today, the linen has aged to a yellowed ecru and the contrast is thought to be much lower.

Good thing Linen is almost impervious to attack from other biological sources.

32 posted on 04/11/2009 1:05:14 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: JohnBovenmyer
I wonder what technicality will prevent DNA testing from matching the Shroud's blood with that of the Sudarium of Oviedo, which the faithful accept and which current knowledge leaves plausible as another of Jesus's burial cloths. Or will God allow a DNA match some day.

The DNA on both the Shroud and the Sudarium are so damaged and polluted with other DNA that any matching is probably impossible.

33 posted on 04/11/2009 1:07:14 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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