Replies

Index and source of these tips:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Cooking+%26+Crafts

While trying to create a bread recipe to meet specifications of my elderly dad (trying to recreate what his mother made) a professional baker provided the following information:

“What you should try for your Dad, is mix a half batch of bread dough, put it into a container and put into the fridge. Forget about it for about five days and then remix it with half of a fresh dough and fresh yeast. That should be sour enough for him.”

Info by professional baker:

“If the garlic amount stays the same adding gluten would help to add strength to the dough, but it will also be effected the same way as the flour protein, and will not add the same amount of strength to the dough as if the garlic were not there. Garlic just makes a weaker dough.”

Info by professional baker:

Kneading a dough develops the flour protein into gluten. The kneading process adds heat to the dough from the friction of the action. That inturn speeds up the rate of fermentation and the development of the gluten gives the dough the ability to expand and retain the gases developed by fermentation.”

— Marie

Info from professional baker:

“They do make such ingredients and they are called “Mold Inhibitors” and they are used by commercial bakeries.

To name a few: Calcium Propionate, Sodium Propionate, Potassium Sorbate and Sorbic Acid. Each has it’s special use for different applications, and or pH ranges. But very difficult to get at the retail level.

As I have said before, the best Mold Inhibitor is cleanliness. As you said before, sour dough will not mold as fast as other bread, the reason is the lower pH. So add vinegar to doughs if it is a problem. 1 or 2 TBS. per loaf of bread, that will also help some and make the bread taste better.”

— Marie
Answers

Can you overknead dough? What is the correct time to knead?

— Ann

Yes, you can over-knead dough but not likely if kneading by hand. Your arms/hands will tire long before that time arrives. However, it is easy to work in too much flour while kneading, therefore, it is a good idea to switch to kneading on a damp surface with wet hands and continue kneading or on an oiled surface with oiled hands. I like to keep back a portion of flour from recipe amount to use on kneading board. This insures I will not work in more flour than recipe needs. I like to work with very soft dough, need to quickly flip over with floured spatula to keep it from running off the board.

If using a heavy duty mixer, you can overknead.

Much depends on quantity of dough being kneaded. If kneading about 4 cups flour amount dough a good 10 minute knead by hand is best. Knead for 5 minutes, let dough rest 10 minutes, knead another 5 minutes. If using a Kitchenaide mixer about 5-8 minute knead, finish on board to form smooth ball of dough. Can also knead some, let rest, knead more. If using a Bosch or similar large capacity mixer it will be less. Have not used the larger mixers so really cannot say how long but would guess about 3-5 minutes for large batch. Maybe those who use these large mixers will be able to tell us how long to knead in them. If using a Bosch or similar go to YahooGroups and then to MixerOwners for more information.

After kneading the amount you think is necessary and dough is elastic, take a small ball of dough and stretch out to thin sheet with hands. Just like you would do with bubble gum. It should be elastic with several small strands visible and no holes in sheet. If it has a few large strands it is not fully developed and needs to be kneaded more. This is called the “window pane” test to see if gluten has developed. You will see thru some area and see strands in other areas. A good strong network of gluten strands makes a better dough to trap yeast gasses.

— Marie

Info by professional baker:

“Yeast food is mostly used by commercial bakeries, it is kind of miss named, because the yeast does not really eat it, it helps adjust the water to a more healthy environment for the yeast, there are different types and each has its own use.They will make for stronger doughs and more volume to the finished product. But the know it all’s put it the class of chemicals, which it is, and therefore no good. Some are good source for added calcium. The two largest amounts of ingredients in a loaf of bread are the flour and the water. They account for most of the problems in bread making. But you can’t tell that to most housewives who make bread at home. They are always looking for that GOOD recipe to make that perfect loaf of bread, what they don’t know is that they have it.”

Info by professional baker:

“Malt sugar, maltose, adds sweetness and is used most times in hard breads and rolls. It is found in two-forms, malt syrup or dried malt powder. This is the type most often used.

Diastatic Malt is rich in enzymes, if I remember correctly the enzyme is diastase, it is also found in flour and it acts upon the starch, liquefies it and converts it into malt sugar which is very important for a lean dough to ferment properly. It also may have some protease in it, also an enzyme but it works on the proteins in the dough to make them a more soluble form which adds to the elasticity of the gluten by mellowing it. All this adds to the keeping quality of the baked bread and the handling of the dough in production.

Diastatic Malt is very hard to control, I have NEVER used it so what I say from now on was told to me by others, and that sometimes the enzymes are not all killed in the baking process and they continue work in the baked bread making like a wet sponge. Not good and most likely the reason that some of the people you talked to, don’t know what it is. I think that most people do not use it. I really would not know why you would want to use it for home baking, when fresh is the keyword there.

If you want to speed up your dough in fermentation, use part dextrose for the sugar. Yeast will ferment that very much faster then sucrose, cane sugar. Remember once we talked about 6 and 12 carbon sugars, dextrose is a 6 carbon sugar, and yeast can work with that without conversion, therefore a much faster fermentation. Dextrose is corn sugar, it is not as sweet as cane sugar, I have use it as the only sugar in a yeast dough that were handled very fast, so the crust color after baking would not be too light.”

— Marie

Diastatic Malt...homemade

Diastatic malt is a powder......you can make yourself. Using organic hard winter wheat, sprout it to the length of the grain, dry it gently, in dehydrator, oven or air dry, completly dry. Then grind it in blender. Use 1 t. for 3-4 loaves of bread, instead of using another sweetener. A great savings in the long haul. Put it in water w/ the yeast to proof yeast, using 1/2 t. for 1 1/2 pound bread baker. The crust is not as dark, but the bread tastes just fine.

— Marie

DOUGH ENHANCER - for white bread & whole wheat breads

(Can use this in whole wheat bread and also add 1 T. vital wheat gluten per cup whole wheat flour used)

1/2 c. lecithin granules
1 1/2 t. ginger powder
1 1/2 t. ascorbic acid powder or Fruit Fresh
2 T. diastatic malt
1/2 c. dry dairy acid whey from buttermilk or cheese making or fresh buttermilk may be substituded in place of liquid in recipe

Mix well and store in glass jar with tight lid.
Use about 1/2 t. per cup flour.
NOTE:
If you cannot find diastatic malt, go to a brew supply store and buy #2 barley malt, have it ground or cracked then at home blend to a powder in blender. The #2 has both enzymes.

Sweet whey will not provide the same thing. Do not use body building whey from health food stores. Do not use whey from soy.

Diastatic malt is not the same as barley malt powder or syrup. Barley malt is a sweetner and does not have the enzymes.

— Marie

Rising bread dough in refrigerator over night allows dough time to mature and have a better flavor. Texture will be finer also.

Mix dough in the evening/night, store in jar 3 times size of dough with lid slightly ajar (keeps jar from exploding from fermenting yeast gasses and dough expansion). May use large glass mixing bowl and cover with plastic wrap sprayed with non-stick vegetable spray.

Next morning remove dough from frig. allow to come to room temperature (about 2 hrs.), form into pan or free form and allow to rise again at room temperature. Bake until internal temperature is 200 F. on an instant read therometer.

Marie

— Marie
Answers

Really? This works? I have been trying various ways to have cinnamon rolls for breakfast without getting up at dawn for two risings. Maybe this will work. I thought, though that you needed warmth for the yeast to work. I’ve tried rising overnight in the microwave but the dough gets sour tasting.

— Ann

I have done this before with dinner rolls for Thanksgiving Day and other times when I wanted more time the next day. I have just put it in the fridge in the oiled bowl that I was using to let it raise in and covered with plastic wrap w/o the spray and it worked just great. It does take a couple of hours to warm up and then to be formed and allowed to raise, but that has been no problem because of the time saved in making/cleaning up. I have a friend who does the same thing with cinnamon rolls. I suppose if you put it by a woodstove or in a warm oven it would warm the dough up sooner, if you needed it earlier. You do need to keep it covered in the fridge because the top will dry out.

— Marie

Info provided by a “baking technologist”:

Marie, I would never use baking powder in a yeast bread. There’s just no need. Baking powder is a mixture of baking soda, which is basic (or alkaline) and one or more acid salts, and generally corn starch to keep the acid and base separate as well as absorb excess humidity.

When baking powder is wetted the acid neutralizes the baking soda and the soda releases carbon dioxide.

There are two types of baking powder, single and double. There are two types of single acting, fast and slow, in fast acting the acid immediately reacts all the baking soda and releases all the CO2. In slow acting the acid salt will not solubilize until it reaches high temperature, and then reacts with the soda.

Double acting has some of both types of acid salts and often will have a fast, intermediate, and a slow acting acid salt. Bread made with baking powder is likely to have a bisquit like flavor.

Many of these Pillsbury bread in a can products are chemically leavened, as are the self rising pizza crusts that you can buy such as DiGiorno etc... if you know what these taste like.

One of the problems with baking powder in a yeast leavened product is that even if you are using a slow acting acid salt the acid produced by the yeast will neutralize the soda long before the acid salts are solubilized.

This is going to raise the pH of your dough, something that you don’t necessarily want, as the acids provide an important part of the flavor profile of your bread. The acid salts will eventually solubilize in the oven lowering the pH of your bread, but these are not the same acids.

I’ll end here if anyone really wants to know more about chemical leavening let me know. Dan

— Marie

Basic Rules for Bread and Possible Faults by Olga Drozd Do follow recipe quantities for flour, yeast and liquid.

Do warm both basin and flour to avoid chilling the dough, which slows up the working of the yeast.

Do make the dough rather on the soft side for a light loaf. If the dough is too stiff it cannot expand under the influence of the yeast.

Do work the dough thoroughly to ensure an even distribution of yeast through the dough. If this is not done, the yeast will not work properly and the dough will not rise enough.

Cover during rising with a lightly greased polythene bag or a wet tea cloth (which must not be allowed to dry out).

Do keep the dough warm, and warm the tins.

Don’t make the dough too hot or it will produce a very coarse, breakable crumb or irregular texture.

Don’t try to shorten the rising time of the dough. Under-proving or under-fermentation will give a heavy soggy loaf with a crust that may break away from the top.

Don’t let the dough rise for too long. Over-proving or over-fermentation results in a loss of strength, colour, scent and flavour.

Don’t bake the bread at too low a temperature or it will be pale, moist and flavourless. The oven must be pre-heated and at the correct temperature.

POSSIBLE FAULTS:

POOR VOLUME, pale crust and flat top. Dough too wet or too dry. Too little salt or yeast. Flour too soft or self-raising. Proving temperature too high and/or too long. Insufficiently kneaded. Under-fermented.

“FLYING TOP” or cracked crust. Flour too soft. Dough too tight. Fermentation time not long enough. Too much dough for size of tin.

HEAVY CLOSE TEXTURE. Flour too soft. Too much salt. Insufficient kneading or fermentation time. Yeast killed by rising in too hot a place. Oven too cool, therefore over-long baking time.

UNEVEN TEXTURE AND HOLES. Too much liquid/salt. Too long or too short fermentation. Not sufficiently kneaded after first rising. Over-proved. Dough left uncovered during first rising, therefore forming a hard skin which will give streaks when kneaded.

COARSE CRUMB AND POOR CRUMB COLOUR. Flour too soft. Insufficient salt. Dough too tight. Under-or over-proving.

SOUR ACID AND YEASTY FLAVOUR. Too much yeast, stale yeast or yeast creamed with sugar. Too long fermentation.

BREAD STALES QUICKLY AND IS CRUMBLY. Too much yeast. Flour too soft. Rising too quickly in too warm a place—over-fermentation.

— Marie

How to calculate dough temperature:

Bread will turn out better if the temperature is controlled to 80° F. The temperature of the dough depends upon the following variables:

Room temperature

Flour temperature Water temperature

Friction heat caused by the mixing action ( allow 32° F for friction)

Example: Assume room temperature = 72° F.

Flour temperature = 70° F.

Friction allowance = 32° F

Rule of Thumb formula:

{(80x3) –32° F } – (72° F +70° F) = 66° F

— Marie