Posted on 09/11/2007 4:12:17 PM PDT by jmc813
It’s not like they were killing dogs or anything.
Stealing signals. Wow. Call out the National Guard.
“what does “radio frequencies” imply?.....”
What’s the frequency, Kenneth?
“what does “radio frequencies” imply?.....”
What’s the frequency, Kenneth?
I believe the Patriots are big time cheaters and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hence the extremely mild defense thus far of what is likely thee most popular NFL team on FR.
If the Pats are listening into the headset frequency of the opposing teams communication systems, they would be able to get the opposing offensive or defensive play call and relay that to your QB or Def leader before the snap in many instances. If this is true, no penalty short of Billeceks banishment from the NFL would be appropriate. The silence of you Patriot fans on this thread is deafening.
The Jets flat out knew that New England would cheat in this game and ARE cheaters, because the Jets head coach Eric Mangini was the Defensive Backs coach of New England when they were racking up their Super Bowl victories. Mangini told them who to look for and the guy was caught. This escalated into the Jets and Pats security staff becoming involved. At one point the Jersey state troopers were called in, it got that heated. The NE staff member doing the filming got caught just before halftime and the incident lasted an hour.
Suffice it to say, Goodell has the video now and it is damning. Every NFL team knows the Patriots cheat. Hence the reason you'll hear that the NFL specifically addressed this and other cheating issues before the season with all teams and told them it would not be tolerated.
mainepatsfan, what do you think of your Patriots and their Super-bowl victories now?
If Eric Mangini is the guy setting this in motion, then one can easily conclude that the New England Patriots Defense was good because they cheated. If Mangini tells all he knows, the Patriots and their Super Bowl victories will become the equivalent of Barry Bonds and the lifetime HomeRun record.
Ping to my post 124.
Lepton, I’d like your viewpoint on what penalty you believe is appropriate if a team is caught filming the signals on the opposing sidelines. And what is appropriate if a team is caught listening into the opposing teams head sets?
I’ve started heating the butter SoldierDad.
I find all of this deeply disturbing as I’ve been a Pat’s fan since about age 10 (I really liked the old logo on the helmet). My opinion about this team is in serious jeapardy of being changed for the worse if the outcome goes poorly for them. Bummer too, because they have the talent on that team to win without using these tactics.
I’m not sure why you specifically honor my opinion, but here goes:
I think that there are a lot of details and nuances which would affect this. The "stealing signals" isn't an offense. It's part of the game, and has been for...forever. It's the use of technological advantage in evaluating something which is open for view, and which can legitimately by anyone with poloroids and eyeballs/binoculars, that is what is being argued over.
I think that this issue is divided a few ways, with each intersection getting a different result:
Does what was done violate a standard analogous to “an expectation of privacy”?
Was the Patriot complaint of others doing this to them found to be bunk? …ignored? – this seems only important if there is evidence that Bellicheck was deliberately pushing the issue.
Is there a legitimate difference of interpretation?
If they were openly filming from across the field while in plain view, then that's one thing, which could be just a moderate fine to the individuals involved for excessively effective recon.
If they had a guy disguise himself and film from an area where the opposing team had an "expectation of privacy" - like the media pool adjacent to the team's sideline or otherwise in close - then that's worth a fine to those involved, perhaps a suspension for Bellicheck, a quite large fine to the team, and a couple of draft choices, with more if it is discovered it was intricantly involved, as this is true spying – though not quite as egregious as bugging an opposing coaches booth.
If this was a point being made in response to previous league unresponsiveness, then that's yet a different category.
If there’s a legitimate difference in interpretation – well, we won’t know that until we hear it. There’s no interpretation that would make it appropriate to surreptitiously bug the opposing coaches booth, locker room, or sidelines.
Specifically what the penalties should be? I don't consider myself qualified. I’m also not fully up on exactly what the “warning” sent out to the teams was, or what precisely it was a response to. I do recall that there was some issue with recording through a locker-room vent(Giants?), and another of purchasing third-part recordings of signals(Dolphins?), but little recollection of when or resolution.
And what is appropriate if a team is caught listening into the opposing teams head sets?
Extremely severe. If it required more than an impulsive switch change, this would be akin to bugging the locker-room or coaching booth - totally out of boundsand requires a banishment of anyone involved.
So Sunday night against SD if Laurence Maroney breaks off a 30 yard run do you want to me to boo him?
That incident occurred years before Victor Kiam got involved with the Patriots.
The inept Sullivans were long time team owners, and the incident involved an actual convict who was on a work release program that made way for a game winning Patriots Field Goal in what was a scoreless game during a serious snow storm.
Victor Kiam's tenure as an NFL owner was profoundly inept but ultimately benign, as far as we who were/are Patriots fans were concerned.
The James Orthwein ownership period was much more of a tragedy for Patriot fans as the Budweiser family heir came quite close to moving the team to St. Louis, Mo.
That was stifled by the fact that earlier noted Sullivans who were so incapable in business that they actually sold the Patriots playing stadium to the Robert Kraft family, and the Lease contract guarantees were prohibitively expensive.
The end result was that the Patriots were bought by the Kraft's, and the Patriots have since become, arguably, the most successful franchise in NFL history.
We (I am) are talking $$$$ now.
P.S. Zamboni's are used on hockey rinks, and snow plows are used to clear snow.
I got everything wrong on my recovered memory of the incident. Except it was the Patriots. And it was snow. Thanks.
I have been a fan of the Patriots through thick and thin, and it was for a long while something akin to unrequited love.
I finally gave up my season tickets and 18 months later after that decision the team acquired Parcells and Bledsoe, and have since been perennial contenders.
I can’t even afford to buy tickets these days, and so in order to see a game in person I’d have to go for tickets in Buffalo or Miami, neither of which options is appealing to me.
The Silent Treatment
Posted: Wednesday January 09, 2002 5:55 PM - ESPN
For good times, there’s nothing like inviting a car full of lip-readers over to watch Sunday’s NFL games.
Lipreading is a feverish topic in the NFL these days. Coaches are covering their mouths when they send in plays because they’re suspicious that thieves are watching. The coaches look like they had onions for lunch or just graduated from the Istanbul Spy Institute. “We hear rumors all the time about [opposing] coaches hiring guys to read our lips,” says Cardinals offensive coordinator Rich Olson.
It’s no rumor, pal. “Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game,” says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. “With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter.”
This story was told by Ned Yost himself in a post game interview.
Anyway, I like this quote from that same article:
...The first game was the Colts' easy win over the Broncos, and the one guy who should've covered his mouth was not a coach but a player, Indianapolis quarterback Peyton Manning. He's Dudley Do-Right in public, but on the field Manning seems to have the vocabulary of a dyspeptic carnival employee. The lip-readers counted nine televised f---s, many dammits, and, once, just for variety's sake, a f-----' dammit!
In the first quarter, after a replay had overturned an apparent touchdown pass to wide receiver Marvin Harrison, Manning was seen to say, disgustedly, "Why'd they show the f-----' replay?" When a running back short-armed his screen pass, he yelled, "F-----' get in there!"
After the game, when our correspondent went to the locker room and told Manning the lip-readers had nailed him, Manning took the stringer's cell phone and called me.
"They got me, huh?" he said, dejectedly.
"Nine times," I said.
"Man, I don't like to use that kind of language. I hate for the kids to see that stuff. But you forget the camera is on you, you know? It just pops out. Nine times? My mother is going to call and reprimand me for that."
I thought the difference was the videocamera. “Stealing signals” is just a part of the sport. You can find many many references to it at many levels.
Does the league specify not to steal signals? Or does it specify not to videorecord certain things with certain broad equipment types?
The fuss over the “stealing signals” portion of the accusations is profoundly silly. Some people can even do that kind of thing unconciously. Unless someone can cite a rule which says otherwise, it seems to be that the issue here is the use of technology in place of human ingenuity.
By the way....what was elaborate about the scheme? According to reports, the guy doing the videotaping was clearly identified as being part of the Patriots Staff, in plain view. Accounts vary as to which side of the field he was on (in reading articles, there are citations for each).
And Miami was the the other team.
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