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Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals
ESPN ^ | 9-11-2007 | Chris Mortensen

Posted on 09/11/2007 4:12:17 PM PDT by jmc813

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.


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To: jmc813

It’s not like they were killing dogs or anything.

Stealing signals. Wow. Call out the National Guard.


121 posted on 09/12/2007 9:30:47 AM PDT by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: cherry

“what does “radio frequencies” imply?.....”

What’s the frequency, Kenneth?


122 posted on 09/12/2007 9:32:24 AM PDT by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: cherry

“what does “radio frequencies” imply?.....”

What’s the frequency, Kenneth?


123 posted on 09/12/2007 9:32:37 AM PDT by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: toddlintown; All; mainepatsfan
Radio frequencies imply that a different method of cheating, one that is FAR more serious than filming hand signals on the opposing sidelines.

I believe the Patriots are big time cheaters and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hence the extremely mild defense thus far of what is likely thee most popular NFL team on FR.

If the Pats are listening into the headset frequency of the opposing teams communication systems, they would be able to get the opposing offensive or defensive play call and relay that to your QB or Def leader before the snap in many instances. If this is true, no penalty short of Billeceks banishment from the NFL would be appropriate. The silence of you Patriot fans on this thread is deafening.

The Jets flat out knew that New England would cheat in this game and ARE cheaters, because the Jets head coach Eric Mangini was the Defensive Backs coach of New England when they were racking up their Super Bowl victories. Mangini told them who to look for and the guy was caught. This escalated into the Jets and Pats security staff becoming involved. At one point the Jersey state troopers were called in, it got that heated. The NE staff member doing the filming got caught just before halftime and the incident lasted an hour.

Suffice it to say, Goodell has the video now and it is damning. Every NFL team knows the Patriots cheat. Hence the reason you'll hear that the NFL specifically addressed this and other cheating issues before the season with all teams and told them it would not be tolerated.

mainepatsfan, what do you think of your Patriots and their Super-bowl victories now?

If Eric Mangini is the guy setting this in motion, then one can easily conclude that the New England Patriots Defense was good because they cheated. If Mangini tells all he knows, the Patriots and their Super Bowl victories will become the equivalent of Barry Bonds and the lifetime HomeRun record.

124 posted on 09/12/2007 12:07:27 PM PDT by Diplomat
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To: lepton; SoldierDad

Ping to my post 124.

Lepton, I’d like your viewpoint on what penalty you believe is appropriate if a team is caught filming the signals on the opposing sidelines. And what is appropriate if a team is caught listening into the opposing teams head sets?

I’ve started heating the butter SoldierDad.


125 posted on 09/12/2007 12:11:53 PM PDT by Diplomat
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To: Diplomat

I find all of this deeply disturbing as I’ve been a Pat’s fan since about age 10 (I really liked the old logo on the helmet). My opinion about this team is in serious jeapardy of being changed for the worse if the outcome goes poorly for them. Bummer too, because they have the talent on that team to win without using these tactics.


126 posted on 09/12/2007 12:26:44 PM PDT by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Division Soldier fighting terrorists in the Triangle of Death)
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To: Diplomat
Lepton, I’d like your viewpoint on what penalty you believe is appropriate if a team is caught filming the signals on the opposing sidelines.

I’m not sure why you specifically honor my opinion, but here goes:

I think that there are a lot of details and nuances which would affect this. The "stealing signals" isn't an offense. It's part of the game, and has been for...forever. It's the use of technological advantage in evaluating something which is open for view, and which can legitimately by anyone with poloroids and eyeballs/binoculars, that is what is being argued over.

I think that this issue is divided a few ways, with each intersection getting a different result:

Does what was done violate a standard analogous to “an expectation of privacy”?

Was the Patriot complaint of others doing this to them found to be bunk? …ignored? – this seems only important if there is evidence that Bellicheck was deliberately pushing the issue.

Is there a legitimate difference of interpretation?

If they were openly filming from across the field while in plain view, then that's one thing, which could be just a moderate fine to the individuals involved for excessively effective recon.

If they had a guy disguise himself and film from an area where the opposing team had an "expectation of privacy" - like the media pool adjacent to the team's sideline or otherwise in close - then that's worth a fine to those involved, perhaps a suspension for Bellicheck, a quite large fine to the team, and a couple of draft choices, with more if it is discovered it was intricantly involved, as this is true spying – though not quite as egregious as bugging an opposing coaches booth.

If this was a point being made in response to previous league unresponsiveness, then that's yet a different category.

If there’s a legitimate difference in interpretation – well, we won’t know that until we hear it. There’s no interpretation that would make it appropriate to surreptitiously bug the opposing coaches booth, locker room, or sidelines.

Specifically what the penalties should be? I don't consider myself qualified. I’m also not fully up on exactly what the “warning” sent out to the teams was, or what precisely it was a response to. I do recall that there was some issue with recording through a locker-room vent(Giants?), and another of purchasing third-part recordings of signals(Dolphins?), but little recollection of when or resolution.

127 posted on 09/12/2007 1:49:30 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Diplomat
This was in my previous post, but didn't come through for some reason:

And what is appropriate if a team is caught listening into the opposing teams head sets?

Extremely severe. If it required more than an impulsive switch change, this would be akin to bugging the locker-room or coaching booth - totally out of boundsand requires a banishment of anyone involved.

128 posted on 09/12/2007 1:51:58 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Diplomat

So Sunday night against SD if Laurence Maroney breaks off a 30 yard run do you want to me to boo him?


129 posted on 09/12/2007 2:20:55 PM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: gusopol3
"Anybody else remember when Victor Kiam was owner of the Patriots and he ran the Zamboni out to clear the field of snow for a game-winning field goal? Now that was in your face cheating, but they got away with it as far as I recall.

That incident occurred years before Victor Kiam got involved with the Patriots.

The inept Sullivans were long time team owners, and the incident involved an actual convict who was on a work release program that made way for a game winning Patriots Field Goal in what was a scoreless game during a serious snow storm.

Victor Kiam's tenure as an NFL owner was profoundly inept but ultimately benign, as far as we who were/are Patriots fans were concerned.

The James Orthwein ownership period was much more of a tragedy for Patriot fans as the Budweiser family heir came quite close to moving the team to St. Louis, Mo.

That was stifled by the fact that earlier noted Sullivans who were so incapable in business that they actually sold the Patriots playing stadium to the Robert Kraft family, and the Lease contract guarantees were prohibitively expensive.

The end result was that the Patriots were bought by the Kraft's, and the Patriots have since become, arguably, the most successful franchise in NFL history.

We (I am) are talking $$$$ now.

P.S. Zamboni's are used on hockey rinks, and snow plows are used to clear snow.

130 posted on 09/12/2007 5:20:54 PM PDT by Radix (Nothing else to do but raise eyebrows and wreak havoc on FR.com)
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To: Radix

I got everything wrong on my recovered memory of the incident. Except it was the Patriots. And it was snow. Thanks.


131 posted on 09/12/2007 5:24:14 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: gusopol3
I m seriously annoyed at this entire incident.

I have been a fan of the Patriots through thick and thin, and it was for a long while something akin to unrequited love.

I finally gave up my season tickets and 18 months later after that decision the team acquired Parcells and Bledsoe, and have since been perennial contenders.

I can’t even afford to buy tickets these days, and so in order to see a game in person I’d have to go for tickets in Buffalo or Miami, neither of which options is appealing to me.

132 posted on 09/12/2007 5:35:48 PM PDT by Radix (Nothing else to do but raise eyebrows and wreak havoc on FR.com)
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To: SoldierDad; Dysart

The Silent Treatment

Posted: Wednesday January 09, 2002 5:55 PM - ESPN

For good times, there’s nothing like inviting a car full of lip-readers over to watch Sunday’s NFL games.

Lipreading is a feverish topic in the NFL these days. Coaches are covering their mouths when they send in plays because they’re suspicious that thieves are watching. The coaches look like they had onions for lunch or just graduated from the Istanbul Spy Institute. “We hear rumors all the time about [opposing] coaches hiring guys to read our lips,” says Cardinals offensive coordinator Rich Olson.

It’s no rumor, pal. “Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game,” says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. “With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter.”


133 posted on 09/12/2007 5:47:53 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: N. Theknow
Earlier this week, the third base coach of the Brewers had the runner try and steal a base in the first inning. Apparently the head coach Ned Yost asked the third base coach why in h*ll he would try and steal in that situation. The coach said that he saw Ned signal it. After they talked about it, they realized that Ned had actually been scratching a mosquito bite on his arm.

This story was told by Ned Yost himself in a post game interview.

134 posted on 09/12/2007 6:06:47 PM PDT by codercpc
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To: lepton
I think the difference between then and now is that 1) Apparently everyone knew about NE's tactics. 2) A formal complaint was filed. 3) The league office issued a stern letter of warning to cease. 4) They arrogantly did so anyway using an elaborate scheme.

Anyway, I like this quote from that same article:

...The first game was the Colts' easy win over the Broncos, and the one guy who should've covered his mouth was not a coach but a player, Indianapolis quarterback Peyton Manning. He's Dudley Do-Right in public, but on the field Manning seems to have the vocabulary of a dyspeptic carnival employee. The lip-readers counted nine televised f---s, many dammits, and, once, just for variety's sake, a f-----' dammit!

In the first quarter, after a replay had overturned an apparent touchdown pass to wide receiver Marvin Harrison, Manning was seen to say, disgustedly, "Why'd they show the f-----' replay?" When a running back short-armed his screen pass, he yelled, "F-----' get in there!"

After the game, when our correspondent went to the locker room and told Manning the lip-readers had nailed him, Manning took the stringer's cell phone and called me.

"They got me, huh?" he said, dejectedly.

"Nine times," I said.

"Man, I don't like to use that kind of language. I hate for the kids to see that stuff. But you forget the camera is on you, you know? It just pops out. Nine times? My mother is going to call and reprimand me for that."

SI

135 posted on 09/12/2007 6:33:48 PM PDT by Dysart (Lip-readers are more fun than naked Jell-O fights.)
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To: Dysart

I thought the difference was the videocamera. “Stealing signals” is just a part of the sport. You can find many many references to it at many levels.

Does the league specify not to steal signals? Or does it specify not to videorecord certain things with certain broad equipment types?

The fuss over the “stealing signals” portion of the accusations is profoundly silly. Some people can even do that kind of thing unconciously. Unless someone can cite a rule which says otherwise, it seems to be that the issue here is the use of technology in place of human ingenuity.

By the way....what was elaborate about the scheme? According to reports, the guy doing the videotaping was clearly identified as being part of the Patriots Staff, in plain view. Accounts vary as to which side of the field he was on (in reading articles, there are citations for each).


136 posted on 09/12/2007 8:18:09 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: gusopol3

And Miami was the the other team.


137 posted on 09/13/2007 12:47:23 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: jmc813
The new Patriots' logo:


138 posted on 09/13/2007 12:19:31 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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