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To: ancient_geezer
Only if one presumes CO2 to be a driver rather than an effect of variation in global temperature,

That's what the research is about, determining and evaluating atmospheric CO2 concentration as a climate change driver. Clearly the time-scales here are different that the century-scale of the current aberration.

I hope that your wife is doing better.

5 posted on 10/30/2006 9:04:50 AM PST by cogitator
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To: cogitator

That's what the research is about, determining and evaluating atmospheric CO2 concentration as a climate change driver.

 

"The rise of the Appalachian Mountains may have caused a major ice age approximately 450 million years ago [Ordovician Period], an Ohio State University study has found. The weathering of the mountains pulled carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, causing the opposite of a greenhouse effect -- an "icehouse" effect. "

Where atmospheric CO2 levels were 15 times higher than they are today.

Interesting that the Ordovician ice age dropped below 12oC temperatures. Actually below the current global mean temperature at 14oC, and was induced at levels exceeding 5500ppm, where we are worried about the world warming up for CO2 levels of 360PPM. An order of magnitude difference in CO2 levels.

Seems to be a big disconnect and yet another "scientist" riding on global warming junkscience to align his papers with the politically acceptable line to push global warming hype.

As pointed out, it behooves one to look at the total picture where paleoclimate research is concerned.

 

Global Surface Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time 

Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya -- 270 mya) is the only time periods in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ).

Temperature after C.R. Scotese
CO2 after R.A. Berner, 1994

  •     There has historically been much more CO2 in our atmosphere than exists today. For example, during the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 900 ppm or about 2.5 times higher than today. The highest concentrations of CO2 during all of the Paleozoic Era occurred during the Ordovician Period, exceeding 6000 ppm -- more than 16 times higher than today.
  •     The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today.

    To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age, with CO2 concentrations nearly 15 times higher than today-- 5500 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming.

6 posted on 10/30/2006 10:05:33 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: cogitator

Clearly the time-scales here are different that the century-scale of the current aberration.

Indeed, among many other factors affecting our exceptionally warm geophysical period with current climatic temperatures predominantly driven by Solar heating/cooling arising from variation of solar activity modulating cosmic ray interactions with cloud cover:

http://spacecenter.dk/xpdf/influence-of-cosmic-rays-on-the-earth.pdf

inducing the dominant portion of global climate changes we currently experience:

Sun's Output Increasing in Possible Trend Fueling Global Warming

Sunspot Activity at 8,000-Year High

Sun's Activity Increased in Past Century, Study Confirms

New Scientist - Hyperactive sun comes out in spots

 

 

An interesting test will be on whether or not ocean and tropospheric temperatures drop as this 8000 year high in solar activity reverses as it is predicted for coming decades.

 

NASA - Long Range Solar Forecast

 

And may already be showing up in falling ocean temperatures since ~2003

Sea Change in Global Warming

with of course, additional variations in temperature due to changes in solar brightness coincident with solar activity:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html

supported in the warming trendsobserved throughout the solar system:

Mars warming:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4266474.stm

Jupiter warming:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-05-04-jupiter-jr-spot_x.htm?POE=TECISVA

Pluto warming:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_021009.html

Neptune's Triton warming:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc_sys.shtml

Saturn's Enceladus warming:
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20060419/Feature1.asp

Saturn warming:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050131/saturn.html

 

as well as variations in climate effects due to changess in Earth's orbital alignment with the mean solar system plane and the geophysical events affecting planetary albedo that arise from that factor:

 

Ice Ages & Astronomical Causes
Brief Introduction to the History of Climate
by Richard A. Muller

Origin of the 100 kyr Glacial Cycle


Figure 1-1 Global warming (NOAA land and ocean temperatures)


Figure 1-2 Climate of the last 2400 years (GISP2)

 

 
Figure 1-3 Climate of the last 12,000 years (GISP2)

 

 


Figure 1-4 Climate of the last 100,000 years (GISP2)

 

 


Figure 1-5 Climate for the last 420 kyr, from Vostok ice

 

 

 

Spectrum of 100-kyr glacial cycle: Orbital inclination, not eccentricity
Richard A. Muller* and Gordon J. MacDonald

Figure 2. Spectral fingerprints in the vicinity of the 100 kyr peak: (a) for data from Site 607; (b) for data of the SPECMAP stack; (c) for a model with linear response to eccentricity, calculated from the results of Quinn et al. (ref 6); (d) for the nonlinear ice-sheet model of Imbrie and Imbrie (ref 22); and (e) for a model with linear response to the inclination of the Earth's orbit (measured with respect to the invariable plane). All calculations are for the period 0-600 ka. The 100 kyr peak in the data in (a) and (b) do not fit the fingerprints from the theories (c) and (d), but are a good match to the prediction from inclination in (e). return to beginning


Far more important to our present analysis, however, is the fact that the predicted 100 kyr "eccentricity line" is actually split into 95 and 125 kyr components, in serious conflict with the single narrow line seen in the climate data. The splitting of this peak into a doublet is well known theoretically (see, e.g., ref 5), but in comparisons with data the two peaks in the eccentricity were merged into a single broad peak by the poor resolution of the Blackman-Tukey algorithm (as was done, for example, in ref 8). The single narrow peak in the climate data was likewise broadened, and it appeared to match the broad eccentricity feature.

***

Figure 3. Variations of the inclination vector of the Earth's orbit. The inclination i is the angle between this vector and the vector of the reference frame; Omega is the azimuthal angle = the angle of the ascending node (in astronomical jargon).. In (A), (B), and (C) the measurements are made with respect to the zodiacal (or ecliptic) frame, i.e. the frame of the current orbit of the Earth. In (D), (E), and (F) the motion has been trasformed to the invariable frame, i.e. the frame of the total angular momentum of the solar system. Note that the primary period of oscillation in the zodiacal frame (A) is 70 kyr, but in the invariable plane (D) it is 100 kyr.

 

 

There is evidence from the Infrared Astronomical Satellite (ref 39) of a narrow dust band extending only two degrees from the invariable plane. The precise location of these bands is uncertain; they may be orbiting in resonant lock with the Earth (ref 40, 41). It is not clear that these bands contain sufficient material to cause the observed climate effects. We note, however, that even small levels of accretion can scavenge greenhouse gases from the stratosphere, and cool the Earth's climate through the mechanism proposed by Hoyle (ref 30). The dust could also affect climate by seeding the formation of much larger ice crystals. The accreting material could be meteoric, originating as particles too large to give detectable infrared radiation.

Data on noctilucent clouds (mesospheric clouds strongly associated with the effects of high meteors and high altitude dust) supports the hypothesis that accretion increase significantly when the Earth passes through the invariable plane. As shown in Figure 6, a strong peak in the number of observed noctilucent clouds occurs on about July 9 in the northern hemisphere (ref 41, 42) within about a day of the date when the Earth passes through the invariable plane (indicated with an arrow). In the southern hemisphere the peak is approximately on January 9, also consistent with the invariable plane passage, but the data are sparse. The coincidence of the peaks of the clouds with the passage through the invariable plane had not previously been noticed, and it supports the contention that there is a peak in accretion at these times. On about the same date there is a similarly narrow peak is observed in the number of polar mesospheric clouds (ref43) and there is a broad peak in total meteoric flux (ref 44). It is therefore possible that it is the trail of meteors in the upper atmosphere, rather than dust, that is responsible for the climate effects.


Fig 6. Frequency of noctilucent clouds vs. day of year, in (A) the northern hemisphere, and in (B) the sourthern hemisphere (ref 41, 42). The arrows indicate the dates when the earth passes through the invariable plane. The coincidence of these dates with the maxima in the noctilucent clouds suggests the presence of a thin ring around the sun. Peaks on the same dates are seen in Polar mesospheric clouds (ref 44) and in radar counts of meteors.

 

 

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9228-mysterious-glowing-clouds-targeted-by-nasa.html

Mysterious glowing clouds targeted by NASA
26 May, 2006

High-altitude noctilucent clouds have been mysteriously spreading around the world in recent years (Image: NASA/JSC/ES and IA)

 

http://newton.ex.ac.uk/aip/physnews.252.html#1

INTERPLANETARY DUST PARTICLES (IDPs) are deposited on the Earth at the rate of about 10,000 tons per year. Does this have any effect on climate? Scientists at Caltech have found that ancient samples of helium-3 (coming mostly from IDPs) in oceanic sediments exhibit a 100,000-year periodicity. The researchers assert that their data, taken along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, support a recently enunciated idea that Earth's orbital inclination varies with a 100-kyr period; this notion in turn had been broached as an explanation for a similar periodicity in the succession of ice ages. (K.A. Farley and D.B. Patterson, Nature, 7 December 1995.)
Farley & Patterson 1998, http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/20/36/33/37/32/abstract.html
Farley http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~farley/
Farley http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/18/23/54/21/49/abstract.html

 

http://www.publicaffairs.noaa.gov/pr96/dec96/noaa96-78.html

ABRUPT CLIMATE CHANGE DURING LAST GLACIAL PERIOD COULD BE TIED TO DUST-INDUCED REGIONAL WARMING

Preliminary new evidence suggests that periodic increases in atmospheric dust concentrations during the glacial periods of the last 100,000 years may have resulted in significant regional warming, and that this warming may have triggered the abrupt climatic changes observed in paleoclimate records, according to a scientist at the Commerce Department's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Current scientific thinking is that the dust concentrations contributed to global cooling.


7 posted on 10/30/2006 11:42:39 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: cogitator

I hope that your wife is doing better.

Quite a bit better now thank you. Home from physical therapy Friday night, getting around with a walker, and improving each day as she heals.

8 posted on 10/30/2006 11:45:37 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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