Posted on 09/01/2006 10:19:41 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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Lacrosse players' defense: Documents being withheld |
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By William F. West : The Herald-Sun |
1. I have to agree with Jezebelle. The behavior of the women was pretty simple and I see no benefit for Roberts [aka] to claim she did not know Mangum after the dump at Krogers was over. So until something indicates they did know each other, I accept that. We need not make this too complicated.
2. I do however like our MikeNifong's conjecture of where the "she pushed me out of the car story" and the "I found her walking down the road" lie came from. Something like that could have happened. It is not a big deal. Roberts was certainly trying to dump Mangum.
3. I firmly believe that there was a dispute over money. Both sides have alluded to it, I believe. I suspect those that chipped in for the nonshow took back some but not all the money they women had been given. Or maybe these hookers expected to be able to make money on the side and were unhappy that no one was interested. This also plays into having two mid or late 20 something strippers, knowing that their ability to make money taking off their clothes might be waning, being particularly insulted that there are no takers to pay for sex with either of them from a group of late teens and early 20s guys. That insult making women mad strikes a more reasonable than a couple of black hookers being particularly insulted over the n-word or even being called hos. [Now I can see pretending to be insulted about ho or the n-word, but the neighbor heard insults being exchanged and with two aging hookers I would see the disinsterest in side deals being the bigger source of anger at the time.]
mark
One note - it was reported that the Nurse in the initial interviewing process asked the AV if she had been raped and she said YES.
That's a one word answer. That was the nurse that labeled her as Incoherent.
My only being if she's incoherent at 1:22 and she's incoherent at 2:37 or whenever she was admitted to Durham access - where did they get the information at 2:12? Her address, her kids, and a cogent story why anyone should be concerned?
"A registered nurse at Durham Access said the woman was INCOHERENT and her responses appeared "as if she were psychologically hurt," Stewart wrote."
http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/468272.html
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The intake part may be superfluous; however, the person reporting she was INCOHERENT was a registered nurse.
I don't think she was that incoherent. She was coherent enough to figure out that she needed to get out of Durham Access and that she could do so by claiming rape.
Once she has achieved her goal and was at Duke Hospital she recanted and said she was only groped. She then recanted her recantation - possibly because she realized if she went with the rape story she could avoid a drug test and certain questions from the police. The fact that she was out of it could be attributed to trauma as opposed to being drunk or on drugs.
I agree with most of that.
The Radio transmissions are puzzling to me though.
--Who Knew Who--
Himan statement of March 20, 2006 -excerpt-
3/20/06 0856HRS - CONTACTED ANGELS ESCORT SERVICE,
SPOKE TO TAMMY ROSE IN REFERENCE TO THE CASE. SHE
STATED THAT SHE DID NOT TAKE THE INITIAL CALL THAT IT
WAS A REFERRAL, FROM MELISSA WHO ALSO HAS AN ESCORT
SERVICE. SHE STATED THAT NIKI WHOSE REAL NAME IS
KIM PITTMAN ALSO WORKS FOR MELISSA. SHE STATED SHE DID
NOT KNOW HOW IT COULD HAPPEN AND THAT WHEN SHE TALKED
TO MS. PITTMAN SHE STATED SHE DID NOT KNOW HOW OR WHEN
IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED. SHE GAVE ME MS. PITMAN S NUMBER
-- Tammy knew both the girls --
Now how likely is it that the DPD Head of Investigations would
know someone involved in at least five different probes?
I agree with a lot of what you say.
I think some misunderstand why I think Kim wanted to get Crystal someplace safe. If something happened to Crystal after being dumped on a roadside, and the cops started backtracking her steps that night, the last person to have seen her breathing would have been Kim. I also think Kim robbed Crystal and then just wanted to get rid of her, but to leave her someplace safe where she could catch a ride or call someone or let the cops deal with her - not someplace where she could be murdered or run over. Remember, Kim knew some of the boys were taking pictures. She may have been aware of the photo taken of Crystal being put in her car. She had also made a 9-1-1 call that she knows or should know could be traced back to her once the cops matched Crystal up to the lax address for that night through the escort service (if anything bad happened to Crystal which, in her condition, would be forseeable is he was just dumped along the road. In that call she gives the lax address and also states she has her "black girlfriend" in the car with her. It would not have been wise to dump Crystal somewhere where she could be killed or seriously injured since she was the last known person to be with her. If Kim dumped her in a ditch or on a sidewalk, she could crawl out and get killed or picked up and murdered. And having a cop come up on her while dragging Crystal out of the car would have ensured her arrest. Having Crystal be seen at Kroger's was just the ticket, so if something happened to her later, her being so out of it, it wasn't on her, and Kim didn't have to risk being connected to a mishap or getting busted. Kim probably figured somebody would call the cops or Crystal would sober up enough to call somebody. She just didn't plan on Crystal refusing to get out of her car.
Anyway, I think this particular subject has been exhausted.
I agree with all you say except part of #2. I don't think Kim pushed Crystal out of the car or seriously contemplated doing that - no "up" side to it. There was no need to run the risks associated with that. I think Crystal either made that up or conflated her encounter with Kim with something that happened earlier, possibly with her pimp or a trick. I'll just point out that she arrived with one shoe off and had some cuts or bruises already. She may have fallen out of the car on her arrival at the lax house, or her BF/pimp/driver - whomever it was - pushed her out and she later changed that aspect of the evening to it being Kim who pushed her out. Kim couldn't push her out anyway. She's not big enough or strong enough to do it without getting out, going around the car and pulling Crystal out.
I agree strongly with #3.
Incoherent doesn't mean speechless. All she had to say is that she had to go get her kids. They would have asked where are they. She would have given her parent's address, something she undoubtedly knows by heart and could easily give even in a state of near-stupor.
A lot of these women who hook and live on the edge know that they can get a break or some mileage out of falling back on their kids when they get in trouble, as long as it isn't too serious.
I thought it was an admission clerk who said it, but I'm not positive.
But somebody else said she was walking around yelling incoherently, I believe, and I remember it as being a clerk of some sort.
I don't read that as necessarily meaning Tammy knew both women or knew of both women before that night. And even if she did, that doesn't mean the two women knew each other.
"BTW- I don't think Kim was "intimidated" by the "broom" comment if it was ever made, even jokingly, but rather figured she has had $400 pay, the Duke boys would not complain to police and saw this as an opportunity to make $400 for three minutes work. I do think she was waiting for AV's ride, as she did not want to hear from her employer about leaving a "co-worker" at a 2 hour gig after 30 minutes. It was self-preservation, rather than any genuine concern for AV, which ended up back-firing on her, when she lost patience at dumped her at Kroger's."
I agree 100% and have said that from the start. These boys aren't street smart. If they were, they'd have never let them in the door. But the women were street smart, especially Kim. I see her manipulating the evening according to her wishes.
Duke lacrosse holds first practice
By JACK DALY, The Herald-Sun
September 4, 2006 9:05 pm
DURHAM -- In a nod to its troubled spring, the Duke men's lacrosse team has selected a motto for the upcoming season that its players -- current or otherwise -- can identify with.
Succisa virescit.
Rough translation: What's cut down grows back stronger.
"Last season obviously got cut short," said senior captain Matt Danowski. "I think we realize what a privilege it is and how much we actually miss and love playing lacrosse."
The Blue Devils went through their first on-campus practice on Monday since the remaining portion of their 2006 season was canceled after rape allegations surfaced against three team members following an off-campus party in March. Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans were eventually indicted by a grand jury on charges of rape, kidnapping and sexual offense. All three await trial.
In the midst of the criminal investigation, Duke suspended the lacrosse program pending the outcome of an internal probe. While longtime coach Mike Pressler resigned on April 5, the school reinstated the program in June.
Duke named John Danowski, the 21-year Hofstra head coach and Matt's father, its new coach on July 21.
Then came Monday, the first preparation for a season that is scheduled to begin on Feb. 24 against Dartmouth at Koskinen Stadium.
On an overcast morning, the team members went through drills on the lacrosse fields behind Koskinen with obvious enthusiasm. The 48 players on the roster -- even with the controversy, there are a high number of students trying to walk on -- generally worked in two groups, with Danowski presiding over the offense.
Even erratic shots didn't dampen the mood. Senior defender Casey Carroll went so far as to thank the media for showing up.
On the back of a couple T-shirts was the Latin motto of the Delbarton School, a prestigious New Jersey prep school that many Duke players attended, including Seligmann and Ryan McFadyen. McFadyen, who was at practice after being reinstated by the school over the summer, was the player who wrote the e-mail -- apparently in jest -- that team members should kill strippers and "cut their skin off" at the next party.
Fred Krom, another Duke player with Delbarton connections, made the suggestion that the Blue Devils embrace his alma mater's motto for their upcoming season.
Whether Duke comes back stronger remains to be seen -- the Blue Devils reached the championship game in 2005. But for now, the players were just happy to be back practicing.
"It felt great," senior defenseman Tony McDevitt said. "There's not too many times you can really appreciate a great sweat. I think everybody appreciated that today."
The younger Danowski hopes that sweat washes away the off-the-field distractions.
"Everybody has their own way of dealing with things, but for me, when I'm on this field, this is it," he said. "It's lacrosse. It's one of the best parts of my day, it's why I came here, it's what got me here.
"I'm thankful for it, and I realize what a privilege it is to be here."
Danowski, who was the 2005 ACC player of the year, will have the added pressure of playing for his father for the first time.
The elder Danowski made a point of not steering his son to Hofstra during the recruiting process, saying that he wanted Matt to get the best possible education.
Now the coach is excited about the opportunity to help shepherd all team members through their college experience, even if it means he'll have to guide players through a potential trial in the spring.
"I took the job to be at Duke University," Danowski said. "The lure of being an educator at one of the top eight, five, 10 schools in the country, that was No. 1. I've always seen myself as an educator first, as a teacher. To be a teacher here? Tremendous opportunity."
The opportunity, of course, wouldn't have come open if it weren't for the rape allegations.
To prevent any further damage to the Duke name, Danowski said he won't rule with an iron fist, although he will hold the players to a high standard, just like he's done at Hofstra his entire career.
"As opposed to setting rules and setting standards, you're trying to get them to understand the consequences of their decision-making," Danowski said. "When you join a team, it's different. It's not like being on campus. Your decisions that you make affect a lot of people."
Of course, any guidelines Danowski puts in place won't help Seligmann, Finnerty or Evans.
Evans graduated with a degree in economics in May. Finnerty and Seligmann are on leaves of absence from the university pending the results of the trial.
All were missed by their former teammates.
"I wish with all my heart that Collin and Reade could be here, but we're going to keep playing lacrosse, and we're going to move on," co-captain Ed Douglas said.
URL for this article: http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-766839.html
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/482745.html
Duke returns to field
Time to end this farce.
"Time to end this farce."
That message should be painted on every fence in Durham and posted on every board and printed at the end of every email sent at Duke. And it should be the motto of the Duke Law School until this is ended.
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