JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case SuspectFR Thread Roundup

Free Republic ^ | August 16-20, 2006 | FReepers

[Rte66]

For your bookmarking assistance, this is a reference list of links to the Aug 2006 or newer Free Republic threads on the topic of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case and the possible arrest of John Mark Karr as a suspect in her murder.

[hoosiermama]

What I heard on the TV last night at my cousins, was that in l997, a school bus had a conversation with JMK. In the conversation he insinuated that the police were really "stupid". There was no snow on the ground and that he knew because he was there......That's all I caught.

[ableLight]

"Right. Learn more about petechial hemorrhaging, and about asphyxiation (sp).

Read about congestion and petechial hemorrhaging in the lungs.

Then read JonBenet's autopsy report again. She died from asphyxiation."

I understand. The question I was asking in the post was does petechial hemorrhage observed anywhere OTHER than the white's of the eyes necessarily imply STRANGULATION as the presenting cause of death. Your post seems to imply an affirmative answer. If so, help the rest of us out with a link, or experts reference to that effect. That was basically what I was asking. So far, everything I've researched, including what you recommended, appears to answer the aforementioned question in the negative.

[hoosiermama]

Uhh, It was a school bus DRIVER not the bus itself.

[ableLight]

That's an interesting idea you have, there. I have felt that if it did happen it was not the parents. Her maternal grandfather has been suspected (he was at the house 3 days before the murder) but theres nothing to support that. A housekeeper's boyfriend is, it seems, a likely suspect to look at.

[hoosiermama]

Vaginitis and yeast infections can be closely related to thrush....Thrush* can cause a sore throat/cough/ smelly breath. SHe was seen by her doctor for all those in Sept and Oct.

*Had a bad case this summer, I know.

[fatima]

Thanks Conservative Texan Mom.

[Miztiki]

"The question I was asking in the post was does petechial hemorrhage observed anywhere OTHER than the white's of the eyes necessarily imply STRANGULATION as the presenting cause of death."

Yes.

Understand, a person can have a blood pressure cuff put on their arm and have petechial hemorrhaging on their arm where the cuff was. Things like that.

But, JonBenet had petechial hemorrhaging on her eyelids (inside and out), on her cheek, around the ligature, and in her lungs. That means she died of strangulation. Those are telltale, classic signs of asphyxiation.

[Conservative Texan Mom]

If I drink too many cokes, I develope thrush. It also happens when I'm on antibiotics. I keep a bottle of acidophilus tablets around. They take care of it pretty quick.

[fatima]

I am a little better.I'll send you freepmail.Don't want to mess up the thread.Do you have a ping list?Can you add me?

[Conservative Texan Mom]

Does anyone know whether or not the housekeeper's husband/boyfriend was investigated?

[hoosiermama]

Sugar, antibiotics, stress all can trigger it.

[Conservative Texan Mom]

You're welcome.

[ableLight]

"But, JonBenet had petechial hemorrhaging on her eyelids (inside and out), on her cheek, around the ligature, and in her lungs. That means she died of strangulation. Those are telltale, classic signs of asphyxiation."

Okay, got that. In my previous posts I had noted that there were other causes of petechial hemorrhage; one of which was craniocerebral trauma. Given that fact, I wasn't convinced (and still am not) WHICH event was causing all the petechial hemorrhage. If fact, I've suggested before, it seems to actually confuse the issue considerably. It could have been a mixture of causes. So, that was why I suggested that the petechial hemorrhage does not necessarily imply strangulation as the presenting cause of death.

I think it was Ste66 who posted that, to confuse the issue more, manual strangulation, asphyxiation and strangulation by ligature all can produce different results. That's another angle worthy of inquiry.

In the end, you may be right. I'm just asking what I hope are the right questions.

[Miztiki]

Forgot to add, she also had congestion in her lungs and had changes in her pancreas consistent with death due to strangulation. She had petechial hemorrhaging on her heart also.

I have no links. I googled the subject and read maybe 100 results.

[Conservative Texan Mom]

My friend that died of cancer had such a terrible case of thrush during her last months. The treatment they had used to get her in remission was very aggressive. She was like 80 pounds by the time they got her there. They couldn't do a stem cell transplant because the doctor was sure she wouldn't survive the procedure unless they could get her weight up. They recommended she eat all kind of sugary stuff. So, that's what she did, and then she developed this thrush which even intravenous anti-fungal medication couldn't get rid of. I kept wandering about how her diet was contributing to this. She was gaining weight, but they still didn't want to proceed with the stem cell transplant because of the thrush. Even though I had my suspicions, it's hard to bring that type of stuff up. Her whole life was centered around medical treatments, and who was I to give medical advise. I brought it up, and she asked her doctor but he poopooed on the suggestion. Unfortunately her remission didn't last long. Her doctor wanted to put her on hospice pretty quick after she relapsed. This ticked her off! She started going to a nutritionist, and looking at some other alternative methods since the guys at MD Anderson had given up on her. The nutritionist addressed her diet very quickly, and within a matter of days her thrush was vastly improved, and eventually gone. In the end, she did pass away, but she felt pretty good up until about 5 days before her death. She believed the change in her diet was the reason why. It might not have made any difference, but I wish she had seen the nutritionist from the beginning. I also wish her doctor had been more aware of how diet affect things like this. She would have been able to go through with the stem cell if the thrush could have been brought under control. She had checked out to do so when her weight stabilized. The thrush was just too bad. After battling it for a month, the docs decided she couldn't wait any longer, but this time when they ran bone scans, the cancer had returned.

[ableLight]

"consistent with death due to strangulation"

But, you're saying, NOT consistent with head trauma. It's how you are EXCLUDING that as a possibility that I'm not getting. I googled it, too, and found references to the causes of petechial hemorrhaging. I was surprised to find that it is NOT solely related to strangulation.

Also, a semantics issue. The material issue in this question of which event occured first has to do with strangulation, not asphyxiation. There can be many causes of asphyxiation and strangulation is only one of them.

[Miztiki]

Didn't see this last post.

It's my understanding that the classic lung/pancreas findings would not be caused by a traumatic head injury.

And we can't forget the petechial hemorrhaging at the site of the ligature. She was most definately alive when she was being strangled.

I think the reason people want the head injury to happen right about the same time that she was strangled is because it otherwise doesn't make sense why the injury would happen after she died. What would be the point, right?

But if her head was accidentally whacked on the way through the basement and up the stairs when her body was found then that would make sense.

If anyone can find an autopsy report of someone who was strangled to death, please look at the portion of the report that discusses the brain. See what it says.

If anyone can find an autopsy report on someone who had a closed head injury then see what it says about the lungs and pancreas, and any petechial hemorrhaging.

That would go a long way in understanding what happened to JonBenet.

[Miztiki]

"But, you're saying, NOT consistent with head trauma. It's how you are EXCLUDING that as a possibility that I'm not getting. I googled it, too, and found references to the causes of petechial hemorrhaging. I was surprised to find that it is NOT solely related to strangulation."

Correct. From what I have been able to find, head trauma alone (without asphyxiation) would not result in the characteristic changes in the lungs and pancreas. I am aware of the difference between asphyxiation and strangulation. The former could be the result of drowning for instance, and have the aforementioned petechial hemorrhaging. Can you find a source of online autopsy reports?

[ableLight]

"And we can't forget the petechial hemorrhaging at the site of the ligature. She was most definately alive when she was being strangled."

I see what you're saying but I'm not entirely convinced about that. Since ph is the result of bursting capillaries I'm not sure what would happen within minutes of death if pressure in those capillaries was increased under the pressure of a ligature. The blood isn't circulating, but I don't know how long it takes the blood to 'back-drain' out of the capillaries after death...

"I think the reason people want the head injury to happen right about the same time that she was strangled is because it otherwise doesn't make sense why the injury would happen after she died. What would be the point, right?"

I think that's key to why some experts have given a window of about 45 minutes max between the events. I suspect there are some subtle issues about blood back-flow and hemorrhage that is the basis for that conclusion - but I don't know yet.

"But if her head was accidentally whacked on the way through the basement and up the stairs when her body was found then that would make sense."

Then why would blood DIFERENTIALLY pool BETWEEN layers of the BBB if it wasn't due to the head injury itself? And why would the coroner not mention livor mortis in that area when he mentions it elsewhere? In fact, Meyer specifically identified it as subdural hemorrhage. I think that's perfectly clear. So, the idea that the head injury was sustained after death is scientifically untenable.

"If anyone can find an autopsy report of someone who was strangled to death, please look at the portion of the report that discusses the brain. See what it says.

If anyone can find an autopsy report on someone who had a closed head injury then see what it says about the lungs and pancreas, and any petechial hemorrhaging.

That would go a long way in understanding what happened to JonBenet."

I agree. I had googled this before and read that head trauma can create ph and conditions very similar to death by asphyxiation and it can be hard to distinguish them. I'll try to find that link again...

[ableLight]

I'm looking now...