Posted on 08/20/2006 5:37:25 AM PDT by Rte66
For your bookmarking assistance, this is a reference list of links to the Aug 2006 or newer Free Republic threads on the topic of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case and the possible arrest of John Mark Karr as a suspect in her murder.
it is possible but internal damage to the neck would have shown up differently is she was hung, they would have noted it.
BTW, it would be nice if we could get an MD or pathologist on to discuss this as well as the head trauma. In particular, I would like to know how specific to strangulation petechial hemorrhaging in the whites of the eyes really is. I say that b/c petechial hemorrhaging on the skin is also a symptom of head trauma, so the two things are hard to distinguish and it CAN also be a symptom of strangulation. I've only read that petechial hemorrhaging in the whites of the eyes is the only definitive way to say that a person actually DIED of strangulation. But we may be in a gray area b/c the events are so close together that its hard to tell. I just don't know.
Now, I would also point out that even if she had expired BEFORE strangulation, that does NOT by itself implicate the family. The attacker may have simply engaged in 'overkill'.
thanks - I'm too tired to think about this now, will look at it later. NAP TIME!
I'm not sure what report you are reading.
Under the portion of the autopsy report titled "EXTERNAL EVIDENCE OF INJURY":
In
the lateral aspect of the left lower eyelid on the inner conjunctival
surface is a 1mminmaximum dimension petechial hemorrhage. Very fine,
less than 1mm petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin of the
upper eyelids bilaterally as well as on the lateral left cheek. On
everting the left upper eyelid there are much smaller, less than 1mm
petechial hemorrhages located on the conjuctival surface. Possible
petechial hemorrhages located on the conjunctival surfaces of the
right upper and lower eyelids, but livor mortis on this side of the
face makes definite identification difficult.
With a modified gag order now in place in the JonBenet murder case, John Mark Karr as the accused, there may not be much news to discuss.
I've added some recent transcripts from interviews with case-related people for this daily ping and will watch for other news to add in this space, as it transpires.
I was not sure what was meant by the reference to the conjuctive surfaces of the eyes, but I looked back and it does say eyelids. however, I think this is a normal pattern for strangulation. Here's why:
LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.
Dr.WS: When strangulation occurs, there is a point where the blood vessels to the neck get obstructed. The blood still flows into the head, but it doesn't flow out.
LC: That's because veins, which have lower blood pressure, are shut off first. Arteries, with higher blood pressure, keep flowing longer.
Dr.WS: ........?..there is increased pressure above the knees, and tiny little blood vessels in the eyes and around the eyes, may break.
LC: Jon Benet eyes did show this pattern of hemmoraging, indicating, Spitz says, that her heart was still beating when the noose was applied. And there's always then another question: was Jon Benet sexually assaulted, and when? Experts disagree, but Spitz's review tells him that Jon Benet had no history of sexual abuse. But a splinter found during the autopsy tells him she was sexually assaulted at the time of her death, perhaps with the artist's paintbrush tied to the cord around her neck.
http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?s=b3fa347cc35a289ce6108cc304662bd4&threadid=268706&perpage=40&pagenumber=85
Experts disagree on this.
LC: Jon Benet eyes did show this pattern of hemmoraging, indicating, Spitz says, that her heart was still beating when the noose was applied. And there's always then another question: was Jon Benet sexually assaulted, and when? Experts disagree, but Spitz's review tells him that Jon Benet had no history of sexual abuse. But a splinter found during the autopsy tells him she was sexually assaulted at the time of her death, perhaps with the artist's paintbrush tied to the cord around her neck.
http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?s=b3fa347cc35a289ce6108cc304662bd4&threadid=268706&perpage=40&pagenumber=85
I see lots of people here using photobucket, but I can't vouch because I haven't used it.
Some have said "tinyurl" does it, too - but again, I haven't tried it.
I think it's difficult to determine which killed her. I am thinking that she was still alive when the head trauma occurred.
There was only a very slight upward deviation of the ligature furrow, at the back.
Children seem more prone to the eyelid petechiae in strangulation or asphyxia, rather than the sclera.
Here are just two study examples - there are many more available:
~~~~
American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology. 21(1):1-4, March 2000.
DiMaio, Vincent J. M. M.D.
Abstract:
Homicides due to asphyxia are relatively uncommon. To better understand the presentation of such cases, the files of the Bexar County Medical Examiner's Office were reviewed from January 1, 1985, through December 31, 1998, for all such homicides. A total of 133 cases were found. The largest category was ligature strangulation with 48 deaths (21 male, 27 female). Petechiae were present in the conjunctivae and/or sclerae in 86% of the cases; fractures of the hyoid and/or thyroid cartilage were present in 12.5%. There were a total of 41 deaths from manual strangulation (27 female, 14 male). Petechiae were present in 89% of the cases. In cases of manual strangulation, fractures of the hyoid, thyroid, or cricoid cartilage were found in all the male victims and slightly more than one half of the female victims. Twenty-six cases of suffocation were found; 20 of the victims were <=2 years of age. Only 1 of these children had petechiae and/or scleral hemorrhage. Five deaths were due to choking. Three of the deaths involved adults who were gagged; 2 deaths involved infants with foreign material pushed into the mouth. Other categories of asphyxia were as follows: 9 deaths due to more than one form of asphyxia; 1 death due to hanging, and 3 deaths due to drowning. Rape was the motive in 66% of the female victims of ligature strangulation and 52% of those due to manual strangulation.
Dade County Medical Examiner Department, Miami, FL 33136.
Conjunctival petechiae were mentioned in 227 (4.5%) of 5,000 consecutive autopsy reports of the Dade County Medical Examiner Department. They were most frequently observed in those who had died natural deaths (particularly due to cardiovascular disease), followed by those who had died from asphyxia, head injury, and central nervous system disorders. The incidence of conjunctival petechiae in victims of homicidal asphyxiation was 78%. These data suggest that conjunctival petechiae most often are the result of hypoxia coupled with an acute increase in cephalic vascular pressure. The latter factor may be the consequence of mechanical vascular obstruction or acute right heart failure.
A lot of the old JonBenet files have been purged in recent years, but most of the leading forensic MDs or pathologists have commented on her case over the years.
Maybe google jonbenet with their names - Spitz, Wecht, Baden are three off the top of my head. If I think of more, I'll add them.
And Karr is only 5'6" to 5'7". LOL, TV tab show even observed the same thing I did the other day, about Karr's weight and height fluctuation in one day's time, from 135 to 140 and from 5'6" to 5'7".
He's a regular "Zelig."
Heck, before this is over, he might confess to killing Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater.
Yikes, he's already calling the stranger Karr. Guess the wannabe has a wannabe, lol!
Ya think? Hmmm ...
The autopsy photos with the "garotte" attached weren't in general circulation - just a few Internet sites.
Then there were some of us who bought the right size paintbrushes and tried to break them in 3 places and couldn't.
Then we tried tying the handle knot with the correct sized flat cord. There is just one small blind spot in the photos where you can't quite tell the path of the cord, over or under, on the back side and that leaves a gap in the knowledge of trying to re-create the knot. And on it goes ...
Geez, Rte66, "stationery objects"?
Yes, it was some parchment colored vellum that Patsy had chosen for the Christmas newsletter, but no one knew that. Some of it had been rolled and laminated into posts, then set in wet cement to harden.
Once in the concrete, the garotte handle could be put between these two stationery objects, see?
>>>Oh, Rte66, I was thinking you probably meant "stationary" objects and just made a typo.
You're right. I did.
I have just been studying up on all of the info on the Wednesday panties and trying to wrap my head around that as well. The sheer volume of information that has been amassed over the years by just regular folks hoping for answers is amazing.
Yes. Obviously they can't take the handle knot apart, as it is evidence, but they did call in a knot expert one time to consult with the BPD.
I always remember him because his surname was Van Tassel, lol. Unfortunately, his findings were among those things that haven't been leaked. People who tie knots do distinctive things that can be profiled, evidently.
The knots used have been characterized as everything from "sophisticated" and "complex" to "basic" and "rudimentary," pointing to everyone from Boy Scouts to amateur sailing enthusiasts to just plain boat owners, to mountain climbers, rappellers and campers.
Oh, and there are quite a few people who felt it could have been someone who knew how to do macrame. That always gets everyone into a "70s memories" discussion of hanging plant holders and hippie vests.
I've never gone to any bondage/S&M sites, but other posters have - I don't know the outcome. They never come back and tell us, lol. Guess they're tied up.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.