[ml1954]

the universe obviously could not have created ITSELF.

Why not?

[sauron]

the universe obviously could not have created ITSELF. Why not?

Are you just lazy, ml1954?

Read the Kalam Cosmological Argument. It's thorough, plain, but a bit difficult for most people to understand, until they try.

[bobdsmith]

snap (see 186)
and no I hadn't reached/seen your post when I replied that