[Southack]

"No, it goes to the heart of the matter. You are assuming mutations with no selection. That's nuts. It's the selection that keeps the body plan of the alligator what it is. Not the mutation rate (of which you have no idea what it is, as you made up your claims about it being slow)."

Incorrect. Again, you are unaware of the effects and interplay of mathematical probabilities on **random** mutations.

Thus, I'm not ruling out the impact of "selection." Instead, I'm factoring in the mathematical randomness of mutations.

Better vision in an alligator would not be "selected" out, for instance, contrary to your setup above. Such a random mutation would survive.

Thus, if a species remains unchanged over vast amounts of time, an answer **other** than "selection" must be present.

[OmahaFields]

Thus, if a species remains unchanged over vast amounts of time, an answer **other** than "selection" must be present.

Since no species has remained unchanged over vast amounts of time, you have just proven that there is no **other**.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Incorrect."

No, I am absolutely correct.

"Again, you are unaware of the effects and interplay of mathematical probabilities on **random** mutations."

And you are just blowing smoke, because the selection process is much more important than the rate of mutations.

"Thus, I'm not ruling out the impact of "selection." Instead, I'm factoring in the mathematical randomness of mutations."

You are COMPLETELY factoring out selection, and pretending that only mutations occur with nothing shaping which ones survive and which ones die off.

"Better vision in an alligator would not be "selected" out, for instance, contrary to your setup above. Such a random mutation would survive."

When did I say better vision in an alligator would be selected out? And what makes you think that it would survive automatically, without any consideration for the environment it was in?

"Thus, if a species remains unchanged over vast amounts of time, an answer **other** than "selection" must be present."

Since none of the alligator species (yes, one of those scientific words you seem to have so much trouble with) which are alive today were around 150 million years ago, your example is wrong on its face. They have not remained unchanged, but have instead speciated many times, even forming higher taxa.