I understand. I have an intense interest in the Declaration of Independence, even unto the lost "Fair Copy", that Jefferson presented to the Committee of Five before the "official" declaration was drafted and presented to the Continental Congress. It is only a little over 228 years old and is extinct. I would now consider any finding of it to be a "copy" or a deliberate forgery. The Shroud of Turin is assumed to be about 2000 years old. Absent the supernatural, the existence of the original dressing of Christ's body, even assuming great care was tendered to it by His early followers, is highly unlikely. I didn't say impossible, but highly unlikely, which is close as close to impossible as one can get. Given the shrouds finding at the Battle of Poitiers, during the Hundred Years War in the Middle ages, with this times propensity to fabricate holy relics for financial and political reasons, the likelihood of the shroud being authentic is, well, not likely.
But whether the shroud is authentic is not my bone of contention with regard to any relic, it is an example of the reasoning behind the Second Commandment. That being, essentially, that nothing from Heaven can be possessed on Earth. Ponder the wisdom behind this commandment. It is meant to prevent a great deal of bloodshed. Any group, religion, tribe, congregation or nation in possession of a truly holy relic, must somehow have God's approval or, be offending God by being an infidel in possession of a holy object of the truly faithful. Being in actual possession of the true Ark of the Covenant, the True Cross or Mohammed's Saddle, would be cause for war.
Therefore, were the Shroud of Turin somehow proved to be Christ's actual burial shroud, could that not be an excuse for the excesses of religion that has killed millions of people over the millenniums? 9/11 being just a recent reminder.
This I tell you true, If I had the complete True Cross, the Holy Grail (probably wood and decayed by the first century), the ruble of the true Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai, Mohammed's Saddle and Buddha's pillow, I would destroy them all. Not in the name of destroying religion, but in the name of peace and goodwill to all Men.
The Shroud of Turin, even if authentic, by the Grace of God and for the good of Man, must be considered "un-proven".
Regards, Buck.
I don't know where you got the idea the Shroud was found at the Battle of Poitiers. It wasn't. It's owner, Geoffrey de Charny, standard bearer of the King, author of the French Code of Chivalry, died defending his King. His widow and daughter, strapped for cash to continue endowing the chapel in Lirey that Geoffrey built to house the shroud, decided to display the relic.
If you noticed de Charny's position, it was the standard bearer for the King which meant that he fought at the side of the King and was the King's last line of defense in battle. It means that de Charny was the most exalted of all the knights in France... and the most trusted. He also wrote the book that established the STANDARD for knightly conduct, the code of Chivalry. This is not exactly your standard dishonest charlatan who would have a fake shroud manufactured so that he could waste his own fortune on maintaining the church he built to house it.
You find it unlikely that the followers of the most important man in history would retain and care for things that touched him or were left behind by him... I don't.
I might agree with you on the sudden appearance of the "Fair Copy" of the Declaration should be looked at with skepticism... but NOT to dismiss it out of hand as you do. In 1989 a bargain hunter discovered one of the 500 "official" authorized copies of the DofC behind a painting he bought for $4. The lucky finder sold it for $2.42 million... and it was resold in 2000 for $8.14 million. It had been hidden for up to 228 years as well.
The provenance of the Shroud IS shrouded (excuse the bad pun) in mystery... but it does have a history beyond 1356. We KNOW a shroud existed as it was listed in the inventory of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. We have the Sermon delivered when the Image of Edessa was brought to Constantinople in 944 in which the monk who delivered it talked about the image. We have the tradition of the Mandylion, an acheiropoieta ("made without hands") true image of Jesus, that preceded to Shroud and was most likely the Shroud itself. All of these things were revered and PROTECTED from damage except for very short, and usually violent events which they survived because of the sacrifices of believers and the risks they took to save them... including the shroud.
Yes, there are holes in the "chain of evidence". The first occurs between the Tomb and the arrival of an "acheiropoieta" image of Christ in Edessa, Turkey, as a gift reportedly from Jesus to King Akbar of Edessa. The image stays in Edessa for the next three centuries... revered and used as a palliative against attack.
The second gap occurs from the siege of Edessa in the 4th Century when the "Image of Edessa" was paraded on the city walls to invoke its protection (which apparently didn't work too well) and its finding, walled up in the city gates, during repairs after an earthquake in 525 or 544.
The Image of Edessa, resided there until 944 when it was handed over to the Emperor in Constantinople in exchange for the release of 200 Muslim POWs. There it was renamed the Mandylion but apprently later discovered to be the shroud as the Mandylion is de-emphasized in literature and the listing of the shroud appears.
The final gap in the chain of custody occurs starting in 1204 when the French Knights of the Fourth Crusade, out of boredom from long delays in sallying forth to Palestine, sack Constantinople and steal many of the relics before torching the buildings that housed them. The disappearance of the Shroud in the sack of Constantinople begins a 150 year gap in the chain of evidence.
Among those participating in the Fourth Crusade was a group called the Knights Templar, a rabidly devout group of priestly knights who would be most interested in seizing relics. In 1307, Jaques de Molay, Grand Master of the Templars was burned at the stake for "idolatry" in that the Templars were reported to be worshiping an image, and the Templars were hunted down and killed. Burned along with De Molay was the Master of the Paris Temple, one Geoffry de Charney.
The modern age of the shroud starts in 1355 in Lirey France where the Shroud turns up in the possession of one Geoffrey de Charny. There are no gaps in the chain from then on.
. . . This I tell you true, If I had the complete True Cross, the Holy Grail (probably wood and decayed by the first century), the ruble of the true Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai, Mohammed's Saddle and Buddha's pillow, I would destroy them all. Not in the name of destroying religion, but in the name of peace and goodwill to all Men.
My, what arogance. What if GOD arranged to leave the shroud as another testament to the suffering and sacrifice of Jesus (and if it is authentic, that is exactly a description of what happened)? You claim that you would substitute GOD's judgement with YOURS as to it value and importance.
It is this very hubris that allows the Taliban to destroy ancient religious artefacts in the name of their religion.