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To: Gamecock; ninenot
The Roman Catholic Church IS the Catholic Church. It incorporates numerous rites which relate to apostolic succession from apostles other than Peter but each is under the authority ultimately of the Patriarch of Rome: Coptic Catholic Church (St. Thomas), a rite centered in Iraq, the Maronite Catholic Church (using Aramaic for liturgy), Syrian Catholic Church (relates to Patriarch of Damascus), Armenian Catholic Church, Greek Catholic Church, Ukrainian Catholic Church, etc.

Virtually none of the rest of what you name (i.e. other than the Roman Catholic Church) are Catholic Churches at all. If a moose calls himself a kumquat it does not make him one.

Down through the years, as you may have noticed when you go to church on Sunday for example, various groups have broken off of the Roman Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ upon Simon bar Joanh, whom He renamed Peter or the Rock, and guaranteed by Jesus Christ Himself as permanent. Early Church Fathers like the brilliant Tertullian tragically fell into the schism or heresy of Ultramontanism before death. There were Donatists, practitioners of the Arian heresy, Albigensians, Nestorians, Monophysites, and many other early heresies. Some may initially have had apostolic succession and disappeared after the succession was broken. Some never had apostolic succession as understood by Catholic Churches: Lutheranism, Methodism, Amish, Mennonites, Anabaptists, Baptists, Congregationalists and similar "reformed" churches. They have always been without the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ under the continued appearance of bread and wine and without the keys of authority to bind and loose. They have not had the Mass in the making present upon the altar of the one and only sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ upon the altar at each Mass. Without Apostolic Succession, there is no legitimate and valid priesthood, no validly consecrated bishops, no Mass, no Holy Orders, no valid Eucharist, and an absence of other essentials.

There are several remaining categories. Some which you mention, but not many, MAY have some rough form of Apostolic Succession. The ones that might deserve a look would be those named Old Catholic or Old Roman Catholic. Their names sound like potential schismatic or heretical Churches which took the trouble to find some reneagde bishop to consecrate some bishops (not unlike SSPX) while deviating fatally on doctrine. They might be related to Old Catholic Churches of Utrecht or the post Vatican I (mid 19th century) Council Churches which were formed by dissident Catholics rejecting papal infallibility and/or conciliar infallibility in communion with the pope or rejecting the Immaculate Conception. Rome probably does not address the alleged apostolic succession of such miniscule sects and time usually takes them deeper into division and heresy. They are certainly denominations just like Albigensians, Arians, Lutherans and the rest.

The Anglicans have long claimed apostolic succession. At the time of Henry VIII's apostasy, only St. John Fisher resisted him seriously among the contemporary Roman bishops and he was martyred for it. That left many validly consecrated bishops who apostasized and joined the "Church of England" headed by......Henry VIII. The matter was investigated at the order of Pope Leo XIII in the last quarter of the 19th century. He determined that there was a failure of succession for specified reasons which I do not recall. The sinfulness of Henry's bishops and their apostasy did not deprive them of the sacramental authority to consecrate bishops and ordain priests. Whatever the problem was, it must have occurred through irregularity of consecration procedures, probably in the 17th century. Things got sloppy after Archbishop Laud's noble attempts to return to orthodoxy in the early 17th century under the Stuarts.

That leaves the Eastern Orthodox Church which has been separated from Rome for nearly 1000 years but has scrupulously maintained validity of its Apostolic Succession, its Mass, its Holy Orders, its sacraments. The differences center certainly on the Filioque and the rejection of papal supremacy by the Orthodox and its assertion by Rome. There are different nuances in other respects.

To the precise degree that any of these churches deviate from the doctrine and discipline of Rome, actual Catholics regard them as wrong. If that makes us sound like a cult, so be it. Why should Catholics care, so long as the "cult" is Roman Catholicism. We do not accept false moral equivalency.

Most churches (except the Eastern Orthodox) which have "issues" with Rome are not at all Catholic whatevr it might please them to say. This is not a metter of all win and each will have prizes.

352 posted on 02/10/2004 1:40:38 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
I like it when WE agree, and you state our Church's positions so eloquently.
353 posted on 02/10/2004 1:47:32 PM PST by onyx (Your secrets are safe with me and all my friends.)
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To: BlackElk
***If a moose calls himself a kumquat it does not make him one.***

LOL!

But we are talking about groups that make the same exact claims you are making, to include Apostolic succession. Just goes to show you there are schisms even in the Catholic Church....
356 posted on 02/10/2004 2:06:44 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: BlackElk
If a moose calls himself a kumquat it does not make him one.


Just because a person "calls" himself a Christian
doesn't make him one either.
360 posted on 02/10/2004 2:16:47 PM PST by WKB (3!~)
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