Mel Gibson says his wife could be going to hell

MSNBC ^ | 02/10/04 | Jeannette Walls

[evets]

Gibson was interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia, and the reporter asked the star if Protestants are denied eternal salvation. “There is no salvation for those outside the Church,” Gibson replied. “I believe it.” He elaborated: “Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She’s a much better person than I am. Honestly. She’s, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it, she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”

[BlackElk]

Now, I must point out that I looked at your homepage and found you reside in my former state of Connecticut which leaves me to fear that your screen name references a certain very futile baseball team near Kenmore Square. As an incorrigible fan of the world's greatest sports franchise which is the baseball team in the South Bronx formerly known as the 19th Century Baltimore Orioles, and then as the New York Highlanders and after the acquisition of one George Herman Ruth, known as the New York Yankees, I extend, if I am right in that instinct, my preliminary condolences on year 86 of the championship drought. As with soviet five-year agricultural projections, there will be expressed unanticipated after-the-failure excuses and reasons. As my lat dad grew up in Southie and Somerville as a fan of the Bosox, I try to be kind but it is sooooo hard.

That out of the way, many Catholics have misunderstood the exclusivity doctrine. We are a very poorly catechized Church in the US after forty years of gonzo liberal bishops dominating and running AmChurch Catholicism into the earth or deeper still.

We must concede that we no longer reside in Christendom and probably will not again. In Christendom there was a close intertwining of Church and State. Truth does not change but verbal usage does. In the post-"Enlightenment" age we pile layer upon confusing layer of vocabulary and usage. I believe that the ordinary magisterium is indeed infallible. Before the Reformation, the Church, in partnership with most states, prosecuted and destroyed most formal heresies. The State served the Church and the papacy in many ways. In this way, all residents, Catholic or not, were very much subject to the pope. This notion continues to horrify members of reformed churches.

We have, as Catholics, always believed in terms and concepts, not flattering to non-Catholics, such as "invincible ignorance" which actually have a benevolent meaning. If you sincerely believe in non-Catholic beliefs (this is not to be taken lightly for granted) you are not likely to be judged harshly by God for obeying the natural law written in your heart though you lack some aspects of Catholic belief or practice or some graces available through the Mass and those sacraments which you do not have.

It was less likely in the heyday of Christendom (which we mean to necessarily involve Catholicism sharing rule with the state) that Catholic leaders would advertise widely the existence of such concepts as "invincible ignorance." Our leaders sin and we do not deny that.

Misunderstandings arise easily. Luther attacked Rome for the apparent sale of indulgences to fund the building of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. First, indulgences cannot really be sold. To so deal in sacred goods is to engage in the sin of simony which would have been understood by all concerned. It is claimed (with credibility) that those preaching in Germany claimed that you could buy your dead relatives out of hell by paying for indulgences. Actually, if you are in hell, you are there permanently. Indulgences, in Catholic doctrine apply only to the remission of temporal punishment due to repented and forgiven sins, i.e. to the souls in Purgatory who are on there way to heaven anyhow but more speedily through the indulgences obtained for them by the Church Militant (on earth). If one is in hell, one did not repent and one was not forgiven.

Second, I suspect that a sold indulgence is no indulgence at all, but I am not sure. This sort of question is akin to one as to whether a fornicating Catholic may use condoms. The Church does not advise sinners as to the nuances of how to most efficiently sin so as to minimize sin and punishment.

Third, based partially on grim truth as was the charge, it sure did make effective mincemeat of any Catholic opponent of Luther stupid enough to defend the practice of selling indulgences.

Fourth, the scandal spread by such defenses led to the further consequence of having people of good will ask themselves: If the Catholics are lying about this, what ELSE are they lying about? That is a tempting thought but it does contain multiple logical fallacies.

[dangus]

Actually, I was referring to Hutton Gibson, and meaning to argue that he was at worst, a heretic and absolutely not an apostate, the alleged heresy being the denial of the validity of Vatican II, which most certainly does establish dogma. I certainly have no problem with Mel building a Tridentine chapel, and offering daily mass on the set. In fact, I think it is wonderful.

I consider your explanation of Grand Theft Supernatural to be correct and quote excellently stated. You do agree that their consecration of the Eucharist would be effectual, no? That is why I bring up the Eastern Orthodox churches, because theirs is effectual, even though they are in full schism.

When you talk about people excommunicating themselves by adhering to the schism, do you mean that they are communicated in sentiae (sp?), or that they have considered themselves apart from the Roman church?

Lastly, about the Jesuits, I was referring to something far older than the 18th century, so I'm not surei we are talking about the same thing.

Finally, as to what I have speculated, I have speculated none of the following things. As far as I know, Mel Gibson is simply a Catholic who is wrong on certain matters of Catholic doctrines, and whose father is a sedavacantist.

[conservonator]

Not to worry, according to the Catholics, just about everybody is going to heaven.

There is a material difference in being part of the plan of Salvation and actually enjoying the fruits of that plan.

[BlackElk]

Quite true but since the Roman Catholic Church is, unquestinably, the original Christian Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, one need not worry as to whether the RCC might not be Christian. Reformed churches claim Christianity and should have little trouble proving that they are quite Christian, following Scripture as authority albeit according to their respective interpretations of same.

We would do better to stress our agreements than to preach in vain AT one another.

[conservonator]

I respectfully disagree. The early church knew nothing of the Papacy, the veneration of Mary and the saints, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conceptions, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, and the Bodily Assumption of Mary.

Nor the trinity, the New Testament, salvation by faith alone ( that on took about 1500 years to get invented) etc...

[conservonator]

In practice it's a very different story.

As is Christianity in general, sadly.

[BlackElk]

Excommunicated "Latae sentiae" (sp.?) which I understand to be self-excommunication. Whether they agree or not that they are excommunicated, they are pending repentance and forgiveness.

It would appear that we are rather close in belief after all.

Old Hutton was a remarkable man is his day. World War II veteran and possibly decorated hero. Verrrry Catholic. Worked as a conductor on the NY Central RR, had many children including Mel. He thought correctly that neither LBJ nor any other politician would get serious about beating the Reds in Nam and that the war thereby became doctrinally not a just war. Accordingly, he withdrew his family to Australia to avoid having his sons drafted for a no-win war. His wife died some years ago. He is reportedly living with a woman not his wife. I have no idea. It may merely mean that she is his live-in nurse or housekeeper. Those pushing seaweed and sassafras diets today said that, at the time of his death, their foe, Dr. Robert Atkins was overweight, had a heart condition and had had a heart attack. He actually died of a fractured skull after slipping and falling on ice on the sidewalk in front of his headquarters and that had nothing to do with cholesterol or heart trouble or weight. Such is the state of media responsibility nowadays.

Maybe Hutton Gibson is an increasingly eccentric old man who misses his wife terribly and does not see enough of his kids. He apparently is a Holocaust denier on which he is, of course, wrong. My parents suspected that their hero FDR ordered George Patton assassinated. My grammar school nuns told us that FDR blew his brains out during a rare momemnt of lucidity at Warm Springs when he figured out what he had done at Yalta under the influence of Alger Hiss. Some people think that Mel must be personally, religiously and politically correct because he made this movie. I think he is a very good guy.

I do remember the wonderful Catherine Zeta-Jones being asked her opinion as to Bush and Gore in 2000. She responded: Why on earth would I be an authority? I am a citizen of Wales, engaged in making movies, have never voted or thought of politics and have no idea of whom others should vote for.

Sorry to have misjudged you.

[Leroy S. Mort]

Well-informed Catholics are aware the Notre Dame is a hotbed of heresy and apostasy.

No wonder the Fighting Irish went 5-7 last season.

[conservonator]

Just because a person "calls" himself a Christian doesn't make him one either.

True, but the Church gives you the benefit of the doubt.

[editor-surveyor]

What a maroon!

It is he who apparently will miss the boat, since by his own admission, he believes that he can earn his way by works. The arrogance of the Roman pagans is amazing.

[karenbarinka]

Uh, folks, these words are not from a new article -- they have been stolen from a New Yorker interview Mel gave last summer. If anybody is interested, Mel has TEASED his wife for years about how she attends Mass with him and the kids but still won't officially convert. Go see WE WERE SOLDIERS -- one of the reasons Mel took the role was that it soooooo mirrored his own HAPPY MIXED MARRIAGE. But that wouldn't make such a sexy inflammatory headline, would it, or perhaps serve the media's obvious attempt to sway Protestants against Mel and Passion?

[GirlShortstop]

Gamecock:  Something out RC friends will deny is that there are about 224 seperate Catholic (big "C") denominations.

   BlackElk:    I deny that. Name 20 of the 224.

Gamecock:  Several have their own Pope and most claim to have serious issues with Rome....
    They say they are! Sounds like denominations to me.
     Just goes to show you there are schisms even in the Catholic Church....

Gamecock, maybe someday you'll actually get a clue?  Your false allegations (lies?) and your feeble, error-riden response to BlackElk's challenge *could not* have been any more lame.  If I have mis-read what you've posted, I hope you'll identify for me the reason(s) why I shouldn't consider you to be a fool and an ignoramus.  

[NotQuiteCricket]

You miss the point - all churches / denominations are a schism from the Catholic church. All Christian religions are descended from Catholicism - because that is the great-great-great old, really old church.

[editor-surveyor]

What nonsense!

The Roman 'church' is the nicolaitanism that the Lord warned about in the seven letters to the seven churches (note the plural)

[WKB]

True, but the Church gives you the benefit of the doubt.


See that's the key to this whole thing.
I have NO DOUBTS

On July 21st 1985 at the age of 35 I asked Jesus
Christ to save me. At that moment I was "born again"
Since that moment I have never had any doubt about being
saved or going to heaven. I KNOW it for a fact.

[DallasMike]

So, Mike: If you agree with SSPX that Catholic Doctrine changes, will you be entering the SSPX?

A. No, I don't plan to enter the SSPX though I did accidentally attend an SSPX service in Bath, England about 20 years ago. The only really positive thing I can say about SSPX is that they at least admit that certain Catholic doctrines changed radically with Vatican II.

Change can be good -- there was a time when Southern Baptist churches had an official policy of racial segregation and excluded blacks from worship. Thank heavens they had the sense to change and repent of this horrible sin.

B. Are you asserting that Catholic doctrine doesn't change? If you are, then how do you square Unam Sanctum with Vatican II? If one doctrine is true than the other doctrine isn't, no matter how much intellectual dancing one does.

Semper eadem does a death spiral on this topic and papal infallibility is on life support.

[NotQuiteCricket]

So, there is another church somewhere that has lasted 1500 years (since the council of Nicene)? If so, please point it out to me, because I am unaware of any such.

Thanks.

[ninenot]

they are communicated in sentiae (sp?),

I think you're looking for 'excommunicated latae sententiae, which means 'automatically.'

Latae sententiae excommunication only occurs for very specific offenses: apostatsy, heresy, schism, procurement of abortion, sacrilege against the Eucharist, using force against the Pope, consecrating a Bishop without Papal mandate, accepting such consecration, and violation of the Seal of Confession are specifically listed as latae sententiae excommuicable offenses.

[NotQuiteCricket]

Pardon me, since the 4th Centry? (circa 300 AD, 1700 years ago).

[Cicero]

Catholics would be less than charitable if they didn't pray for the conversion of other Christians to the Catholic Church. (As probably many Protestants would do the opposite.) But sometimes, it would seem, God sees fit to leave people where they are. There is certainly good hope of salvation for any truly decent person who tries to do his or her best by her own lights. Catholics believe that Catholicism has "the fulness of the faith" and has the help of liturgy and Sacraments that make the spiritual life much easier.